Are you interested in angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, monsters? Are you curious about their origins, tales, and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, sit back, relax, and welcome to Seven Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more.
Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Southern Demonology. And as always, I'm your host, JJ. Happy holidays, y'all. As we are just a few weeks away from a brand new year, I wanted to start off with a quick recap of how Southern Demonology is doing overall and give credit where credit is due. To you all, the listeners. When I started this podcast way back in 2017, I expected to have three people listen to my ramblings, one of whom would be my mom. And yes, while my mom is indeed one of the listeners to this day, hi mom, I was still blown away by the amount of people who tuned in.
In that first year, I had over 3,000 listeners. And then that nearly doubled to 5,800 the next year. And that trend has only increased. 2019 saw 6,800 people, but then in 2020, that number exploded into 16,700. Hmm.
I wonder what happened in 2020 that would make people listen to podcasts more, especially to dig around and try to find my podcast. Um, and all of that just completely blew my mind. But 2021 has kept my jaw hanging wide open. Uh, as so far we've had almost 21,500 plays. That may not seem like a huge amount, and compared to other popular programs, it's not. But for me, it is unimaginable. Moreover, the Discord server has gone from a handful of individuals to nearly 90, and even my website has been getting several thousand hits each and every month.
So I wanted to take a little time and say that I am humbled and honored. Whether you've joined Discord, written me an email, or just listened to an episode on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And I cannot say that enough. Looking forward to the new year, I will be trying a few new things in order to help increase audience participation. For example, on Wednesday, December 22nd at 7 p.m. Eastern Time in the U.S.
, I will be hosting a live talk on Wisdom, a social audio platform that's been featured on the Apple App Store and written about in such publications as TechCrunch and the Financial Post. If there's an interest, I may even start to run regular sessions there or even produce an episode after show. You can find me via my username, Southern Demonology, all one word, and I will have this information in the episode's description. So if you have any questions or like to hear some additional thoughts, and maybe even to be able to get some additional guests to come on board, then come on by.
It'd be great to have you. So speaking of guests, the heavens have aligned in some sort of particular configuration, and I've gotten the chance to line up a few different interviews which will be featured in the upcoming days and weeks. For example, I will be releasing an episode Christmas Eve with Christy, a scholar who has studied Aramaic incantation bowls. And if you think those sound cool, then just wait until you get to hear more about them. Plus, she's also just an incredibly awesome person.
I'm also prepping an episode featuring some of the life experiences and methods of demonic protection that comes straight from one of our Discord members, Listero. I also hope to get uh scheduled some interviews around angels, a topic that I have yet to fully discuss, followed by a talk on the perfectly possessed. And if you've heard any of my episodes around uh modern uh uh exorcism, then I have mentioned a few times what a perfectly possessed person is, and we're gonna go deeper into that kind of context. That's a lot.
But there's one more, and that's tonight's talk with our dear friend Toki from Japan Explained, who would delve more not only into yokai and even some Yudei, uh, which are monsters and ghosts for those who aren't in the know, um, but will also share some of her knowledge around Kyoto and how Yokai helped shape it into what it is now. So sit back, relax, and enjoy some more yokai knowledge featuring Toki from Japan Explained. Well, I am happy to have uh Toki back uh from her podcast.
We recently did a an entire yokai episode, and she shared a lot of her phenomenal knowledge, and uh she was nice enough to volunteer to come back, which was surprising, but also really, really fantastic. So I thoroughly appreciate it. How are you doing today?
Hi, I'm doing great, thank you.
Awesome. So before we continue, can you uh just give us another rundown of your podcast and any special events that have been currently going on?
Sure. So my podcast is Japan Explained, and I explain everything about Japan one episode at a time, so you can learn more about yokai if you want, or you can learn also about Japanese food, uh, history, and uh even karaoke recently, actually.
Oh, that's awesome. Karaoke boxes are amazing to go to. I would like to touch on that at the end if you don't mind. Sure. Okay, but um, so today we're going to continue on with our discussion of uh yokai. But I think uh because I don't have too much knowledge of it, I've never even been there because I was so busy working, but I would like to kind of zoom into uh Kyoto, which uh of course Toki has a phenomenal amount of knowledge about. Um, so if uh you could walk us through some of that as you put it, the mystical world of Kyoto, I think that everyone would love to be able to hear about that.
So, why Kyoto is so special in Japan, it's it's been a capital of Japan for more than 1,000 years. And the history of Kyoto actually starts with evil spirits, because initially the capital was not supposed to be there. So, how the story of Kyoto starts is that in Nara, the emperor was constantly surrounded by priests from Buddhist temples, and he was fed up with that. So he thought, okay, I'll move the capital away from Nara, leave all these temples, all these monks. And uh he actually did that, he moved to a small city of Nagaoka and started building the capital there.
Except that there was a plot and the main architect was killed, and a lot of different uh bad events happened. So the emperor asked to investigate, and they found out that it was his brother who was actually responsible for all of that. They sent him to exile. That was at the time the worst that could happen to any noble person because all the culture, everything was in the capital. If you're sent out of the capital, it's like you have been sent to, I don't know, like an inhabited island or something. They really found that yeah, they found it that he's super super harsh punishment.
And uh on the way to his exile, he probably starved himself to death and he turned into evil spirit. So he returned back to Nagaoka and he started making people sick, he started killing members of imperial household, and the emperor understood that this evil spirit will just not let him do anything in this city, and he set up to find a new capital for himself. So this time he was like, Okay, I need a place where this spirit or any other spirit they cannot follow me.
I need some very auspicious, very nice place, and Japan at the time was still borrowing a lot of the knowledge, everything from China. So they turned into Chinese belief that the city, the capital, should be protected by four magic animals. Uh, one would be Genbu, the black turtle with like a snake tail. Uh the second would be Biako, the white tiger, Seyu, the blue dragon, and Suzaku, the red phoenix. And they found this place called well now called Kyoto, uh which actually has all the criteria for ideal capital.
And as a bonus to it, it already had a few pretty good shrines to protect the city on the most dangerous direction, which is the northeast. So they built they moved the capital there to build the city according to all the Chinese standards, and they really protected it from the mist from the mystical beings.
And why is the northeast the most dangerous?
So when it comes to the northeast, uh Japan again as you were using all the things as China, and in China you measured the time by the animals of the zodiacal circle. So this the northeast, and actually they also measured time and they measured the directions on these animals. And northeast was in between a tiger and uh a bull. And if you look at the images of Oni, Japanese demons, they actually represent this direction because they have bull horns and they wear lionclaws made of tiger skin.
Yeah, I can see that. That is an amazing bit of trivia right there. I had no idea, honestly.
So the north where the northeast, it was like the most feared direction. It was considered that all the evil comes from that direction. So if you look at Imperial at Imperial Palace in Kyoto, uh it's been rebuilt in a slightly different place nowadays, but on the northeastern corner, it actually doesn't have a proper corner, it's kind of concaved and it has a figurine of monkey there. Because in Japanese the word monkey, saru is pronounced exactly like the word saru, which means to leave. So that was a clue to the demons, like okay, guys, you're not welcome.
Oh, that is awesome.
They also had a lot of temples on the northeast uh direction to protect it, like for example, the famous uh uh temple on Mount Hiei in Rakuji, it's uh it's also protecting this direction, and you can go all the way to like nearby Shiga Prefecture, and they will have small shrines and temples following this line, and they all have like monkeys or like monkey carvings and stuff like that to protect the palace.
Wow, we'll be dang. Yeah, I know that Kyoto is famous for its uh for its temples, but uh to actually know the reason why that is is uh and why they might be so elaborate is definitely interesting.
They have a lot of these little details because on one hand, in building Kyoto, Empire was running away from all the Buddhist monks, so temples inside Kyoto were actually prohibited for a very long time, but then on the outskirts of the capital, you have a lot of temples protecting the city, or like they have a lot of mystic, like a lot of legends surrounding them, that there was some saint or something like that happening in the area, and that's why they build a temple.
Gotcha. Um, so I know that you had also mentioned that you know Kyoto is home to uh demon parades and demon slayers and on my own. Um, if you could give us like a little bit of a rundown on those, I think everyone would love to hear about it. I know.
Oh, sure. Sure. So how the capital of Kyoto was built actually plays a big part in that. So Chinese capitals were built as a rectangular that is elongated from north to south. Then in the north, in the very center, you have Imperial Palace, and then the rest is uh cut in squares like a chessboard, and then you have like big streets and smaller streets, and they are numbered. So the Imperial Palace is the north edge of the city, and the street it ends with is the first the first street. Or in Kyoto it was called Ichijo Dori.
And as the edge of the capital, well, any edges in a lot of cultures, they are tricky places because they are not here and not there. So that's the place where all the bad energy, all the evil spirits, they will gather there.
So since the Capitol itself was really well protected from Bad Spirit Centering there, they guarded there on the unprotected outskirt, this Ichijadori.
And uh it was said that sometimes there were like so many of them that they were forming the parades, and uh you have the word Hekiagyo that uh afterwards uh reimagined in more like comical way and like funny scrolls and everything, but initially it was something considered to be super scary, it was the days when all these evil honey, all these evil spirits they gathered and they were like parading and having fun on the outskirts of the capital, and then if you mean if you end up there at the same time as they are, then nobody knows what can happen to you.
Well, I'll be dang.
That was actually so considered to be so scary that uh the Imperial Palace it had the Bureau of Divination. One of uh jobs of this bureau was to predict like days when this Hekiager procession will be out, so that people sit at home, they don't go outside, they don't uh they don't have a chance to meet with demons.
Obviously, not everybody followed, and we have some stories of uh like aristocrats meeting with this demonic procession, and uh well they banned they broke the rules and of not going out, but at the same time, like they knew what to do when they made the procession, so like they asked their peasants to lower the blinds of their palanquin, and then they would be sitting and chanting the prayers, and uh then that it helped them to safely go through that. The funny point in all these stories though is that the peasants don't see the demons, only the noblemen can.
Isn't that always the way?
Yeah, like Japanese noblemen, they really thought about them like they they are special, like all these peasants there, uh you don't understand anything.
You actually find very similar things in uh Mesopotamia, uh, because if you happen to say suffer from a from migraines, then that was because uh you know a a ghost had essentially inhabited your room, and so you would then hire in an exorcist who would then perform all manners of spells in order to keep you safe and protected from these otherworldly beings that were inhabiting you. So wow. Um, and then uh so we have the demon parades, but what about the demon slayers?
So, yeah, obviously you have demon parades, and uh then uh there are demon slayers. These happened in Kyoto and around Kyoto, and there are a few very famous stories. I think one of the best known is Shuten Doji. Did you hear about that one?
It's not ringing any bells.
It's a very famous, like old Japanese story. I think it's forgotten now a lot, and uh it's a pity, it's pretty cool. But uh it's said that in the north of Kyoto in the mountains, there was a demon living, and he was called Shuten Doji, or translated as uh Saki Loving Guy. More like psychu loving kid, but uh well kids are not supposed to drink nowadays, so and uh there was a famous story of uh samurai from coming from Kyoto to fight him uh because Shutandoji and his gang they were coming to the capital, they were kidnapping the daughters.
From aristocratic families, and then they were bringing them to the mountains, where, as legend says, they were pickling them and eating them, and uh, like they were super awful, uh, like human flesh-eating demons. And then there were there was a hero hero Minamoto Raiko who went there and uh with uh some help from Buddhas, and then with help of his retainers, obviously, and even some uh magical divinations from the famous Onoji uh Abinosime that he went there and he managed to find this uh demon and to kill him and to save all the princesses and bring them back to Kyoto.
Then another famous one, and uh the one that actually has like a remains in Kyoto still, uh it's uh Noue. Nue is a majestic creature, really. It looks super awesome. Uh it's a type of Japanese chimera, and uh it is said that once uh it was trying to attack the imperial palace, it came a few times and it really scared the emperor.
So then another samurai he tried to save the emperor and he shoot the nue from his bow, and uh he managed to hit it and nua fell, and now the place where Nue fell is actually marked, it has a small Nueva pond and uh a little shrine dedicated to Nue because it's a funny Japanese tradition. Like, if you kill something, if it's a demon, if it's a monster, like you put a shrine after them and show them, like, okay, now you're dead, we like you now, so please be nice.
Oh, yeah, especially how you can convert them to essentially become you know the protectors of that place. I have always found that really interesting.
Yeah, exactly. I love that.
Oh my gosh. So so we've covered at least some of that. Is there any other kind of uh tidbits or anything that you wanted to cover about uh kind of the mystical world of Kyoto?
Well, uh, speaking again of Ichijo Dori, actually, that's a place that still survives in Kyoto, and now they have like a very cute yoke figures near the shops on this street uh to remind people of uh the old days. But uh there was one guy who actually built his house near Ichijo dori because for him it was the best place to live. The guy was called Abe No Seme, and he's known as the most famous magician, and uh in Japan in Japanese he's called Onyoji, so like Inyan master of a sword in Japan. He was uh working for Imperial Court, and he has a ton of legend about him.
Like some legends even say that he was not fully human, that his mom was a fox. And uh yeah, yes, that's uh there is legend that uh his father saved uh Kitsune, and then to thank him, she became his wife, and they had a son who became Abenosime, and then with this heritage, he had he was living kind of in two worlds at the time.
He was being he was living in the human world, but at the same time he had really deep insight into the demon world, so he could make demons serve him, or he could find them, or exercise them when nobody else could, so he's like a super super cool guy, and he was living right in the Ichijo street.
Oh my gosh, I think that you have just um eliminated, I mean, uh illuminated like half of all anime uh you know uh storylines just right there.
I I believe there are there is a lot, a lot of things based on Sen Seimei because he's been a famous person since uh pretty much since his life, I guess.
True. And there are there are just so many uh legends, you know, Mikashi Mikashi, of um of all of these um, you know, simple farmers from anywhere from simple farmers to noblemen, uh, who you know happen to have rescued something or had a wife who turned out to be you know mystical or evil or loving, uh, but you know, always found themselves kind of straddling these two different kinds of worlds. Those are always my favorite kind of like legends from Japan, they're just so beautiful and strange that you know, half the time.
Yeah, and it's interesting how actually a lot of these stories have kind of a happy ending. Like when you think of Japanese fairy tales in general, like these ones where they are sad, but it's it's a happy ending in this episode. I always found it interesting that these ones that are kind of like the most dangerous creatures in them, and then like boom, everybody's alive.
Oh, that's always the best part of it. Awesome. Well, I um also wanted to uh uh I know that you have some uh some interesting takes on uh Okiku uh from uh Humanji Castle, which we talked about in our uh Uday episode, and uh would love to get some uh you know, if you have anything else that you wanted to add on uh on her story.
Well, okiku is a really interesting character, I would say, because she's not a very typical Yudei, absolutely, because like if you look at other famous Yude, especially Oiwa, like they are scary. Yeah, okiku, she is not scary, she's more like the sad ghost type, and she comes out of her well as a reminder.
But uh I really like how after the story became really famous, like Okiku is one of the three famous ghosts in Japan, and uh the kabuki play, the story everything was based on, and like the first kabuki play were called Bansho no Sarayashike, the plate mention from Bansho Province, and Bansho Province is the old name for like Hogo part of Hyogo Prefecture, so like Kobe and Himenji cities.
So Himenji Castle actually has a well from where Makiku was coming from, and uh like they still preserve it and everything, but then because the store was so much so famous, there were like a lot of castles saying, No, no, no, no, no, it's it's our well, it's it's our story. So I like how everybody wanted their piece of fame from this.
Oh, yeah. In fact, um I think so. There's been some you know, um, some local research done trying to trace back all of the different kinds of origin stories that resulted around Okiku, and I think it wound up being something like 110 different variations upon her tail and claiming no, this is the well in which she comes from.
So I would totally believe in that. It was massively popular. So, especially in Ada period, people were really trying to make a lot, they were making a lot of legends. Like if you look at any part of Japanese culture in ADA period, people really made it difficult for historians.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, not just between kind of blurring the lines between real-world situations and then uh Kaitan or ghost stories, and you know, throwing them together, and then you had variations upon that being done in no theater, uh, and it just keeps like getting a life of its own and snowballing all over the place.
Yes, yes, so it's it's it's a giant snowball, but I do think that in Okiku's case, Himedi is like one of the believable stories, especially because the domain was very famous, very rich at the time, so they actually could have these plates that she's supposed supposedly broken.
True, and just the way in which you know it came about that you know she's kind of blamed for the plates. Um, you know, whether it is the the you know the master of the castle or his son uh trying to coerce her into having a sexual relationship, and after he's rebuffed, you know, he uh hides the plate, but then it becomes damaged, and so she gets blamed for it. Um I know that there are thousands of different variations on that tale, but um, yeah, it's just I mean, it's so all of it is just so overwhelmingly sad.
Yeah, uh it's really, really sad, and I think that's why people liked it because it was different and it was really like I imagine if you would see it in Kabuki theater, like it would make you cry. And you come to Kabuki theater to have strong emotions. You come to laugh strongly, you come to cry. It's it's a public, it's it's a theater for regular public, regular working people, so they didn't need something very deep, but they needed something really touching, yeah.
And I mean, it's the same with any kind of like um older theater tradition, but there are just so many little cues, and uh you know that uh someone who's not familiar with no would be completely lost upon. Uh, but all of the especially when it comes to the representation of uh Yude within No, how it was always done so elaborately and so scary, and often with real blood, although not human. Uh, yeah, it's just oh god, they're just amazing to be able to find recordings of and to be able to watch.
Yeah, Japanese theater is is is awesome. Like, I'm not that good with no theater because it's too formal, and uh, I find myself asleep a lot of times watching it, but kabuki kabuki is something like they do have boring plays, but most of them they're just so colorful, and the costumes are awesome, and like all the special effects they put in there, like they would have in uh 70 cent 17th century already, they would have like mist and moving stage and all this awesome stuff that make you feel like wow, this magician, he is really flying or like this demon, he really disappeared into nowhere.
It was just I can't believe I can't imagine how awesome people thought it was.
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, strangely enough, um, there's been a lot of I'm gonna keep going back to anime for a second. Um I apologize for that. Um, but there's always these like little niche anime interests that people you can almost see the author thinking, what can I do? Something about that no one else has touched upon. So you get these, you know, unique musical instruments, and uh those become you know entire episodes about things, but then there was one that was solely about a kabuki club in high school that was it was beautiful.
I mean, and everyone deride at them of oh, you have no idea the traditions, you'll never be able to do it, and they don't really, but still it's yeah, if you've never experienced kabuki in any way, shape, or form, uh, that is a fantastic kind of primer as to some of the the the you know just the majesty that they can uh that they can produce without a problem in the world.
So yeah, I love kabuki, and uh actually what I like about it, even nowadays, it's really trying to stay modern. Like I watched Naruto Kabuki. Oh, you're kidding me, yeah, it was really, really cool, and uh like they took the story and they really squished it into like two hours' time, but they had this giant battle of you know, Jiraya and his frog, and uh the uh what's the the name of the lady, the one of hook, I guess, like with her with her uh oh that's not it's not a snail, it's not a snail, but yes, it's a snail, it's a giant snail or something.
So there they had this snail and the frog and the snake, and they had all these giant figurines like moving, and then they had uh some special effects on the monitor behind it. It was really, really fun. Like they brought good old uh kabuki and then just mixed it with anime, and uh it's awesome.
Too bad they couldn't have done a better show, but yeah, I mean that does sound awesome though. All righty. Well, I I think that that is all the time that we have for today. Uh, was there anything else that you wanted to uh to call out, Toki, before we ended things?
Since we're on a point of anime, I just wanted to ask you have you watched Hosuki no Reitetsu?
Uh the name's not ringing a bell. Can you give me a small description?
Uh it's about life in Japanese health.
No, I have not.
Because I was remembering about one more cool uh story about the mystical world of Kyoto, and then it made me think about this anime. It's absolutely gorgeous. You have Japanese folk tales mixed with Buddhist belief and like the full uh structure, very, very structured Japanese hell and the guy who rules it all. It's absolutely gorgeous anime.
Okay, I will be checking that out today because amazingly, you know, we're coming at the very tail end of the uh summer anime season. Um, and I'm always looking for things to kind of fill up the gap between when the previous season is ending and the new one has yet to start up.
Uh, so I would definitely check that out, especially when um like one of the standout hits for this particular season has been um uh medical uh chan, which is about a girl who suddenly, for some strange reason, begins to see you day everywhere and they scare the ever-living crap out of her, but she like steals her, he she like convinces herself that if I don't react to them, then they can't do anything to me. It's just like it actually just keeps getting better and better and better. It's been really awesome, actually. And just the name of the show, Mierda Cochin.
Uh, you know, I it's a small girl who can see things, and it's just you know, is it's kind of poetic to me. I I like it.
I should give it a try.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for sharing your wealth of information. Um, and yeah, uh when uh I know I know that you know we have talked about having a uh a third installment of this uh when the time is right. So uh yeah, I look forward to uh to talking to you again in the future.
Thank you. I'll be glad to come back anytime. So just let me know.
Sounds good. I well uh this is has been uh Toki from uh Japan Explained. Thank you again, and uh yeah, we will uh talk to you next time.
Thank you for having me. See you next time.
Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.com where you can find all of our social and podcasting links. Also, if you have a moment, please feel free to rate this podcast and leave any encouraging feedback that you may have. As always, I am JJ and it has been a pleasure getting to talk to you today.