Theology of Hostage to the Devil

Speaker 10:08

Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, influence, <span data-t="20.

5">and how to protect against the unknown? If so, then welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores <span data-t="31.

0">all of this and more.

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Speaker 61:50

Hey, this is Kim Holderness.

Speaker 31:51

And this is Pen Holderness.

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And we have a podcast called Laughlines.

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We've laughed about insane 90s song lyrics, unhinged summer jobs, and designing the perfect Gen X <span data-t="126.

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So we called our show Laugh Lines for, you know, the lines that show up on our <span data-t="140.

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Speaker 13:03

Hello all and welcome back to Southern Demonology and to the Wandering Road, as we are once <span data-t="191.

9">again going to have a joint publication, which I thoroughly enjoy, even though Chris's presence isn't the <span data-t="200.

1">greatest thing in the world, but you know, I deal with it. We all do what we have <span data-t="204.

2">to do, right? How are you doing, Chris? I bring all of your listeners. Just kidding. You're <span data-t="212.

3">probably accurate on that one to take. I don't doubt that whatsoever. They're definitely not here for <span data-t="220.

3">my shining personality. How has your week been?

Speaker 23:44

Oh, it's been bloody hell. I'll put it that way.

Speaker 13:48

I know that feeling. As I was telling you right before the record button was hit. I've <span data-t="234.

2">worked uh almost 160 hours in two weeks, and I am pretty much dead at the moment. So <span data-t="241.

5">if I start lathering like a bloody idiot, just ignore me because it's just who I am now, <span data-t="247.

3">apparently.

Speaker 24:07

Well, no, I don't feel as bad. I probably I'm pushing maybe 95.

Speaker 14:13

That's still a hefty chunk, don't yeah, because even like I was telling my wife last night <span data-t="259.

4">how because she she's seen how absent I have been from everything. Luckily, she had her own <span data-t="265.

4">stuff going on, and she was like, Well, now I feel bad because I don't feel like I'm <span data-t="269.

7">doing anything. I said, It's not a bloody race. Um I know workaholics that treat it like a <span data-t="276.

7">race, and I used to be like that, and I look back on myself and I go, No, <span data-t="281.

4">no, no, it's not an accomplishment to work yourself to death for no bloody compens extra compensation <span data-t="288.

6">or anything else. But here I am.

Speaker 24:50

Oh, I hear you, but yeah, dude, I have a production checkout Tuesday night to deal with <span data-t="296.

9">nine o'clock. It's supposed to end at 11:30. But the last one that took place for this project <span data-t="301.

9">did not end until two o'clock in the morning. So I am not looking forward to that.

Speaker 15:07

So when I used to work at College Board, all of our deployments were at night, in <span data-t="313.

3">which I led every single one of them, and they didn't start until nine or ten o'clock at <span data-t="318.

1">night. I've been on those calls, and I god, even back when I used to work at other <span data-t="323.

5">companies, I still remember camping out all night long for like a major overhaul to the system <span data-t="329.

9">which we were developing. And yeah, it uh I I don't wish that back on anybody.

Speaker 25:35

And for my listeners and JJ listeners, if the topic we're talking about right now, our work <span data-t="341.

0">life, sounds like hell, well, it ties directly into what we're gonna be talking about today, Mr. JJ.

Speaker 15:46

Which is that's a clever aside, I like that.

Speaker 25:50

Which is one of the best books I've ever read. If you want to scare yourself and <span data-t="356.

6">have nightmares, read Hostage to the Devil by Father Malachy Martin. And for today, we're not going <span data-t="363.

8">to go into each of the cases because that would take a very long time. JJ, what do <span data-t="369.

1">you think? We could probably make a series about talking about this book, cover each case one <span data-t="373.

4">episode at a time.

Speaker 16:14

Yeah, I I like that, but today I wanted to tackle probably, and this is a big <span data-t="382.

5">Herculean task in and of itself, is to tackle the biggest and most difficult part of the book, <span data-t="390.

4">and that is the appendices, especially the first appendix. All of them are lengthy. I've said this <span data-t="398.

4">before somewhere, and I don't remember if it was on your show, on a guest show, or even <span data-t="405.

4">Southern Demonology. But this book, Hostage to the Devil, The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans, <span data-t="414.

1">it radically changed my life. I was assigned to read this book in college under the amazing <span data-t="421.

0">tutelage of Dr. Blix, and it scared the ever-living the Jesus out of me. It has stayed a <span data-t="430.

6">constant. I have always been interested in the strange, in those things that induce shock value, but <span data-t="440.

1">this gave a richer purpose to my life, so much so that I almost entered into the priesthood <span data-t="447.

7">in order to become an exorcist. And it was only after learning that that path isn't a <span data-t="454.

5">guaranteed one did I back off from that. Needless to say, this book has had a profound impact <span data-t="461.

2">upon me. I thought it was time to begin discussing it rather than rather than as a an <span data-t="467.

9">aside, but to do so as the main topic of conversation, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 27:54

No, it doesn't. You just confuse everybody. As a matter of fact, I'm about to leave the <span data-t="480.

4">recording and everybody probably just stopped listening. I'm kidding. Oh, so long, then I'm glad you didn't <span data-t="488.

6">become an exorcist because you'd you'd be a lot more stressed out than you are now being a <span data-t="493.

1">developer. Yeah, that's that's true. And one story I love to retell from my buddy over in <span data-t="500.

2">Ireland who talks about his parents being friends with the priest that used to do exorcisms in <span data-t="506.

2">I think like Zimbabwe or something like that. The guy was in his late 40s, early 50s, but <span data-t="512.

0">it took so much out of him that he looked like he was mid-70s. Like that is how <span data-t="518.

4">much of a toll this type of work takes on people.

Speaker 18:41

I've said it, Father Birdsong has said it multiple times. The work of an exorcist is one <span data-t="528.

3">of loving sacrifice. Because, as Martin himself says, becoming an exorcist is offering yourself as a hostage, <span data-t="538.

7">as Christ himself did for all of humanity, but you're doing it for just one individual.

Speaker 29:06

But that is fascinating, isn't it? Just the whole concept of putting yourself out there. I wonder, <span data-t="552.

2">you know how exorcists, you know, you're not supposed to be curious about certain things, you're not <span data-t="557.

8">supposed to fall into temptation, let's say, like when the demon starts saying shit. You gotta admit, <span data-t="564.

3">like, if it was me, I'd be terrified. How do you train someone? Uh aside from the you <span data-t="569.

8">know, the Roman rituals and the prayers that you can say to protect yourself while you're going <span data-t="575.

5">through the whole entire process that Father Martin lays out, just if you ever sit there and <span data-t="581.

3">just really think about to me, it would be really scary. Like, I I get scared, and you <span data-t="586.

2">know, you hear a bump in the night, and it's like, oh shit. But here you are willingly <span data-t="591.

6">going into a home, a room, somewhere where you know you're face to face with something that has <span data-t="599.

8">never been human, hates you to the highest degree possible, and wants to do nothing but harm to <span data-t="605.

7">the individual that they're possessing, everyone in the room, and you, whether it that be not only <span data-t="610.

8">physically, spiritually, and also mentally. There were some parts in the book in general where they're talking <span data-t="616.

8">about a ritual of exorcism, someone being exercised, and they start throwing facts about the priest or <span data-t="624.

1">other people that this person would not know. So you have to have a really strong personality <span data-t="630.

3">to not be phased by anything in order to do this. I just keep coming back to the <span data-t="635.

0">fear aspect because you know the you know, a lot of people say, like, oh, you're not supposed <span data-t="638.

8">to fear this stuff, but you're human, you can't help it.

Speaker 110:41

And Father Martin answers that in the first part of the appendices where he is outlining the <span data-t="652.

0">theology and even delves into it in the next section in which he's actually talking about the <span data-t="659.

0">Roman ritual itself. But especially in that first part, the answer is that the exorcist himself is <span data-t="667.

4">not confronting the preternatural, rather, he is just a vessel for God's blessing, for the divinity of <span data-t="677.

9">Christ, in order to repel and expel the possessing spirit. Because Martin, who says you have your <span data-t="688.

9">your human, you have your preternatural, which is much more powerful than anything we could ever bring <span data-t="696.

3">to bear. The most powerful is the supernatural, because that stems from God. That's really the only answer.

In fact, the ritual itself and Martin says that a priest has to go to mass, he <span data-t="714.

6">has to or conduct a mass, he has to go through confession, he has to prepare himself and <span data-t="720.

6">be staunchly with God, and only then can one enter in. But if the ego of the exorcist <span data-t="729.

4">comes into play, then all is lost. Because you have to be, you have to hold that tate, <span data-t="736.

6">that shield of faith in front of you, which will then blunt any attack and protect you, not <span data-t="744.

3">fully. And to go back to what you were saying earlier, the harshness of these experiences, they <span data-t="751.

9">draw something out of you. And I can cite quite a few different sources from this. First, you <span data-t="759.

7">have Father Michael Strong in the book, who after his last run-in with the spirit who he had <span data-t="766.

8">confronted twice in his life, each one of those experiences left him bereft of feeling joy. It <span data-t="775.

9">sapped him totally. And even the Deptera that perform rituals for the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, the ones <span data-t="786.

3">that are responsible for protecting people from the demonic by using the demonic, they are said to <span data-t="793.

6">die the most horrible deaths imaginable. I don't doubt that. I really don't. I wish I did, but <span data-t="801.

6">I don't. In short, only God can keep you safe, but there's always going to be spell of God.

Now, there is some incongruity there because you know Martin is said to have conducted countless <span data-t="817.

7">rituals and he was untouched, largely untouched. Whereas others they can do one or two and they're gone.

And I don't know if there's ever gonna be a one-to-one because the spirits themselves are vastly <span data-t="833.

4">different, but you know, we can get to that.

Speaker 213:56

I want to backtrack a little bit, if that's okay with you. Yeah. To ego. The ego <span data-t="841.

8">has to go out the door. Now, what comes to mind for me with that statement is that <span data-t="846.

8">your ego can't be involved. At what point is it the priest's confidence in himself, not only <span data-t="853.

8">himself in in God and the angels and Jesus, bleed over to his ego, being like, I'm not <span data-t="860.

6">gonna let this thing get the best of me. It's a very fine line between confidence and belief.

Speaker 114:26

Does that make sense? It does, but I I think it is a slightly wrong-headed beat. Because, <span data-t="874.

2">yes, I mean, the the priest has to know that he is in the good graces of God, <span data-t="880.

9">and no matter what's going to happen, he's going to be protected. I wouldn't say it's the <span data-t="885.

4">confidence that protects him, but rather it is the servitude to God that protects him.

Speaker 214:52

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like the servitude to God. Yeah, the servitude, yes, but you always have to <span data-t="898.

3">I'm assuming that you can't go into these things with you're scared and you're cowering. You have <span data-t="903.

8">to go in, like you can't shake me because I have XYZ behind me.

Speaker 115:09

Well, that's true. In fact, in the ritual itself, it says that at certain points that the <span data-t="915.

4">priest will say authoritatively, will say confidently, and that is because he knows that he has the <span data-t="924.

9">Trinity behind him. And that speaks to I think the very first part, which isn't technically labeled <span data-t="932.

2">in appendix. I don't want to confuse people, but it's the section right before the appendix, which <span data-t="939.

0">goes into the theology. That's the part that is absolutely fascinating to me because Martin outlines probably <span data-t="948.

2">the best theological takes that I have seen on this particular topic, and the theme of universality, <span data-t="957.

3">deepness, and interconnectivity. Martin outlines, and I mean mo most confessions of faith do this as well, <span data-t="966.

5">but it speaks to the worldview that as a believer you have, and for Catholics at least, it <span data-t="976.

2">is that there is the Trinity, and the Trinity is it's not three gods, it's one God, but <span data-t="983.

3">one God composed of three facets Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And the idea of our <span data-t="991.

3">humanness isn't defined by a set of psychoabilities that our bodies and minds produce, but rather it <span data-t="1002.

9">is that well of humanness, that soul, which delves deep into the foundations of Christ. And it <span data-t="1011.

5">was only because of Christ, and I'm not trying to be like religious or insist that Christianity <span data-t="1017.

7">is the only way. That's not what I'm doing. I'm just I'm espousing what Martin himself says.

Speaker 217:04

Yeah, it's a piggyback off of that, JJ. Not trying to cut you off, just to reiterate <span data-t="1029.

7">what you just said. We're literally discussing today. I have the book in my hand, literally comes <span data-t="1035.

4">from the book Hostage to the Devil, just to make that clear.

Speaker 117:18

Yeah, yeah. I'm not an apologist, I am not um witnessing to the majority to the people <span data-t="1045.

9">that are listening to this. Don't don't take it like that. Now, I I will be up front.

I am a Catholic. Chris is a Catholic, but you're a better one than me. No, I <span data-t="1059.

3">am absolutely not. I've only just recently started this Lent season not eating meat on Fridays, and <span data-t="1067.

2">that's kind of the minimal activity that one could do, and I don't know. I already failed <span data-t="1073.

2">half the time.

Speaker 117:54

I haven't eaten yet, but I'm sure I'm going to.

Speaker 217:58

My mom always says, because my mom grew up like really poor, and obviously she's Catholic. <span data-t="1083.

9">She's like, Is God gonna stop you from eating what you have because of Lent? Are you <span data-t="1088.

1">gonna sit there and starve to death? So that's why she's uh never really subscribed to the <span data-t="1092.

2">whole not only eating fish on Friday thing. But anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 118:16

Especially in this economic climate, dear lord, seafood is more expensive than anything else. So I <span data-t="1102.

4">can understand if someone doesn't have the means to partake in the well that and apparently you <span data-t="1110.

0">can eat copybotta no problem at all, even though it is meat because it's also an aquatic animal.

But it's not a fish. It doesn't matter. The Catholic Church ruled that yeah, you can <span data-t="1121.

0">eat copy butter, no problem.

Speaker 218:43

Yeah, to appease people, but but it's a mammal. Do you eat copybotta?

Speaker 118:48

No, I would pet one, but I would not ever eat one. The one thing that I <span data-t="1135.

2">truly love about the theology that Martin presents is that level of interconnectivity because he ties the <span data-t="1146.

1">essence of being human back into Christ. In the modern world where everything seems to be surface <span data-t="1153.

9">level, to hear that deepening of experience. I don't know if I can adequately explain it, but <span data-t="1163.

8">it it really is soothing to me. It's it's like I have entered into mass and have <span data-t="1171.

6">knelt down on the kneeler, and I'm praying before the service starts, and that deep level of <span data-t="1179.

5">peace descends upon me. It it it smacks me of that. It's almost like I can smell <span data-t="1186.

9">the the sandalwood incense. Something about that beckons to me undeniably. The one thing that Martin darts <span data-t="1196.

2">off this this particular section with is you know, I I find it interesting, is the fact <span data-t="1203.

5">that creation was not a series of depths that God took, but rather it is essentially it <span data-t="1212.

5">was constant. It was something that God knew about, that he would become a human, that he <span data-t="1218.

8">would validate humanity and rescue us from the shadows of death, essentially, at the beginning. That is <span data-t="1228.

7">kind of implied with the moniker of omniscience, but the fact that he spelled that out, I <span data-t="1235.

4">really did enjoy.

Speaker 220:37

I think the way that uh Father Martin lays out this entire section on good and evil <span data-t="1242.

2">and the manual of possession is really interesting. For example, Human Spirit and Lucifer, I found that <span data-t="1247.

8">section really interesting. Specifically when he's basically talking about like why did Lucifer rebel?

Speaker 120:54

Yeah, a lot of people talk about why Lucifer rebelled, and they're put it in such <span data-t="1261.

0">concrete terms. Martin himself, he outlines like four or five distinct possibilities as to why. Was it <span data-t="1270.

6">rooted in conceitedness, wasn't it rooted in the refusal to serve, was it rooted in future possibilities <span data-t="1280.

2">of what humanity might become? He says one can only surmise, and I think that is absolutely true.

We don't know the answer to that. All we know is that yes, he did rebel, and <span data-t="1296.

8">that becomes the central theme to that.

Speaker 221:39

No, that is a good point, and here's the actual passage you're talking about. Or did <span data-t="1304.

2">Lucifer with angelic intelligence foresee a destiny of human beings yet hidden from our human eyes, that <span data-t="1312.

1">after eons of development, when outer spaces colonize in billions of galaxies, mankind will progress and <span data-t="1319.

2">evolve into. Spirit to a status we know nothing of, and in which men and women will <span data-t="1324.

4">enjoy a freedom from matter, but still be able to enjoy the beauty of this material world. <span data-t="1332.

8">Jealousy, ambition, pride, scorn, we can only surmise.

Speaker 122:18

Thank you for finding that particular passage. Because one of the things I really admire about <span data-t="1344.

6">Martin is the fact that there's a level of humility in his writings, as it should be <span data-t="1353.

5">for a priest. Because a priest is not there to stand upon ego. I always think of <span data-t="1362.

2">um Amadeus, the scene where the cardinal is sitting and uh Mozart's father runs into the room <span data-t="1368.

9">and immediately begins to kiss the ring. It's not that level of authority. It is kind of <span data-t="1375.

5">my favorite principle when it comes to leadership. It is servant leadership. Only by being a servant <span data-t="1381.

8">can you lead, only by making sure that those in which you look after prosper and you <span data-t="1387.

5">in turn be successful. The other thing that I really love, and I didn't realize until re-listening <span data-t="1396.

6">and rereading this particular part is that going once again to that theory of interconnectedness, and this <span data-t="1405.

1">is a view that I have had and I have espoused on uh southern demonology quite a <span data-t="1410.

3">few times, is that there is a difference between human evil and perturnatural evil, and the same <span data-t="1420.

0">thing goes for good. Martin himself says that it's only by watching the divinity within us do <span data-t="1427.

9">our goodness manifest it, and it's the same thing here, but it's the reverse. In fact, this <span data-t="1435.

2">is the part I really want to hammer home because you will hear certain sects and denominations <span data-t="1442.

5">of Christianity who seem to be obsessed with the idea that there are always multiple demons, like <span data-t="1451.

4">I've heard even in our conversation last week with Brandon Morgan, when you were talking about the <span data-t="1457.

8">case in England where they said, Oh, you've got 48 demons trapped inside of you, and we <span data-t="1464.

0">got rid of 46, but there are two left. To me, that is the absolute most wrong-headed <span data-t="1471.

2">way of thinking about this. And Martin addresses that directly because ProFootball is back, and so are <span data-t="1481.

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Speaker 125:47

While he goes into the universal belief of the Trinity, he also goes into the sometimes <span data-t="1555.

1">interesting way in which the both the Roman ritual and he refers to the evil spirit. And <span data-t="1564.

3">it's not as if he's talking about a singular entity, because you will often hear these things <span data-t="1572.

1">slip between I and we, but it's the fact that there's usually one entity that is the <span data-t="1581.

0">commanding presence. It doesn't really matter if there's one, if there's multitudes, if there's a legion <span data-t="1588.

5">in there, they're all kind of connected. In fact, the ritual itself, essentially, uh every time an <span data-t="1596.

6">exorcist performs that holy rite, he is admonishing not just the spirit or spirits which are possessing <span data-t="1607.

8">that person in front of him, but he is admonishing the entire host of the demonic.

Speaker 226:56

JJ, if I could interject really quick. Listeners, if you have the book and you want to <span data-t="1621.

0">follow along with certain passages on page 419 under Human Spirit and Lucifer to quote Father Martin, <span data-t="1628.

5">he says the evil spirits in question are not personal in that sense, being bodiless, their individual <span data-t="1634.

6">identities do not depend on a bodily identity. Christian teaching is that they think, will, act, and <span data-t="1643.

2">are self-aware and exercise their power purely, simply, and directly without the use of the psycho-physical. <span data-t="1651.

1">So essentially, to me, what Father Martin is saying there, and to add on to what you're <span data-t="1656.

2">saying with regards to this page and this passage, is that these things don't rely on a <span data-t="1661.

9">physical identity. We think of them as an unseen physical entity. Am I correct in that assessment?

Speaker 127:49

Well, and that's because we're forced to, because we have only known a physical identity, we're <span data-t="1675.

9">unaware of anything that is outside of ourselves because we are limited in only knowing ourselves. These <span data-t="1684.

5">things have never been human, are often grouped together, and that's because they identify as a group <span data-t="1691.

9">in addition to individually. We can only perceive them in such a way because that is what <span data-t="1698.

9">our experience tells us. That you know, as Martin himself says, if we talk about 217 million <span data-t="1705.

9">Americans, then we mean 217 million Americans. That does not apply to the demonic. Right.

Speaker 228:34

No, that is correct, because it could be more, could be less. You don't know what <span data-t="1718.

7">you're dealing with.

Speaker 128:39

Martin didn't expressly come out and say this, but it's what I took. And it goes <span data-t="1728.

2">directly into this idea that the demonic is both singular in a multitude, is that it is <span data-t="1735.

0">kind of a perversion of the Trinity. Whereas you don't know what you're dealing with, all of <span data-t="1741.

8">these things are, yes, they are connected, but these are created spirits, and that's something which is <span data-t="1749.

4">a very vastly important item to Martin, because God is not a created spirit, and the demonic <span data-t="1760.

2">were generated as angels, and in fact, they were meant to be, at least what Martin says, <span data-t="1767.

9">they were meant to be uh servants to humanity, to be helpers, spiritual helpers to humanity, and <span data-t="1776.

1">as such, they retain that link to humanity, and that is one of the reasons why they <span data-t="1784.

6">hate us so vehemently to the point where and they hate us not just because of that <span data-t="1792.

0">link, but because of the depthness to that connection we have to Christ, and they abhor that. <span data-t="1801.

6">And I don't think that hatred is something that we can even begin to grasp, to hate <span data-t="1810.

1">something so thoroughly that you want to see it corrupted and putrefied. I shudder to even think <span data-t="1817.

6">about it. Kind of like my hatred for the Red Sox. That's my favorite team. What are <span data-t="1822.

5">you talking about? It's like my hatred for the Patriots, I'll put it that way.

Speaker 230:30

I mean, why are you wearing a Tom Brady jersey right now? I am absolutely not, I <span data-t="1836.

8">would never do that.

Speaker 130:37

Dear Lord, don't make me come through this camera at you. I do it. Those were some <span data-t="1846.

9">of the like the main bullet points I wanted to get out that goes over the theological <span data-t="1853.

8">aspects to this and how that underpins every single story. And yeah, you can can read the <span data-t="1862.

8">stories that make up the first part of this book, and you can take a lot away <span data-t="1868.

0">from that. But I think that this is why we went from the backboard, because without knowing <span data-t="1875.

4">those underpinnings, you're not going to get as much out of those stories as you could.

Speaker 231:22

Right. No, I think that makes sense because you have to understand, you have to understand <span data-t="1886.

3">the foundation, you have to understand the theology as to why certain things play out in each <span data-t="1893.

4">one of the cases.

Speaker 131:35

It goes back to the exact same principle in which I say that if you pick up <span data-t="1900.

7">the Bible and just start reading it, you're gonna take some things away. That's absolutely true. But <span data-t="1907.

7">are you gonna understand the sits and leavens? Are you gonna be able to extract every metaphor, <span data-t="1913.

4">every reference, every simile? No, you're not, because you don't know the events and circumstances that <span data-t="1922.

4">the people who wrote these books lived through, and that is just as valid as the writings themselves.

Speaker 232:11

That's why a certain point in time, only clergy were allowed to have copies of the <span data-t="1936.

4">Bible and allowed to read it. And it's not like they just sat through it and once <span data-t="1940.

6">they literally dedicated their whole lives to understanding the text, reading it multiple times multiple times <span data-t="1947.

2">over, and I'm sure that gets ingrained into your head when you have to manually copy it <span data-t="1954.

2">by hand so that there are multiple copies of the book in circulation for other clergy. I <span data-t="1962.

5">think you bring up a great point in that you can't just pick it up and you <span data-t="1966.

5">can't just read it. You could read it and go through the stories. Absolutely. If you want <span data-t="1971.

9">to do that, you pick it up, you read it, you read the stories for what they <span data-t="1975.

8">are, you take the moral lessons from them. But if you try to apply your own theology, <span data-t="1981.

8">it's it's difficult, and you might end up doing something or saying something that it's like, whoa, <span data-t="1989.

8">this that's not what it's supposed to do. You're not supposed to use it to argue for <span data-t="1995.

8">the enslavement of people and justify the enslavement of people, which was done throughout time, or start <span data-t="2002.

6">picking up snakes and drinking poison and oh for f sake, don't get me started on that shit.

I had a co-worker who went to one of those when she was little, the snake things.

Really? Yeah, they would have rattlesnakes walking around with rattlesnakes and passing them around. Like, <span data-t="2022.

4">what the f is wrong with you? She said she's seen people get bit and they just <span data-t="2027.

5">had to like drag them out and call ambulances and stuff. It's wild to me.

Speaker 133:52

Yeah, that is when you take a metaphor and you apply it wholly inaccurately.

Speaker 234:00

Yeah, and if you physically try to live by every single law, you're not supposed to mix <span data-t="2047.

1">and match clothing, you're not supposed to eat shellfish, you're not supposed to do certain things. So <span data-t="2053.

1">yeah.

Speaker 134:13

626 laws.

Speaker 234:16

There's not just 10. No, I mean, probably break uh 625 of them a day.

Speaker 134:22

I may feel like that myself, more than not. I think that we have rambled on long <span data-t="2068.

3">enough. Let's stop here, and then the next episode will get into the Roman ritual because there's <span data-t="2076.

7">some fascinating aspects that Martin writes about with that, and we can actually discuss the ritual itself.

But I am going to once again stress then you find this within this particular chapter, <span data-t="2089.

9">you find it when he's talking about the ritual. This is not something that can just be <span data-t="2095.

2">picked up and recited by anybody.

Speaker 234:58

Like your dumbass did. You want to share that example for everyone?

Speaker 135:02

Dear Lord, yeah. I've done it before, but I'll say it again. I did this, I made <span data-t="2107.

4">this very critical mistake because I did not take all the words to heart. Only those with <span data-t="2114.

7">the authority of the church, so has to be blessed by a bishop can do this. I've <span data-t="2122.

1">heard people say, Oh, you know, I have the authority, it's by my own authority. That is <span data-t="2128.

0">when you fall into very trubulent waters and you get yourself into major issues. I myself tried <span data-t="2136.

2">to do a possession of place by reciting this, and thank God nothing bad happened to me. <span data-t="2143.

8">But I put myself into a very vulnerable situation that it's only by the grace of God <span data-t="2151.

9">that nothing did bad happen. Oh, that was great English, by the way. Nothing great bad happened. <span data-t="2157.

8">Yeah, I'm sorry.

Speaker 236:00

Oh, I'm leaving that in. Before we wrap up, I want to ask you a question. Yeah. <span data-t="2165.

9">So we've all seen those TV shows where there's a person sharing their haunting experience, and there's <span data-t="2173.

3">like a reenactment of it. And then they talk about how they went around their house and <span data-t="2178.

6">they did a blessing and all that stuff. Isn't that kind of by proxy and really shitty <span data-t="2184.

5">attempt of an exorcism of locale? Isn't that dangerous in itself? You're walking around your home flicking <span data-t="2191.

2">holy water and saying something to the likes of in the name of God or in the <span data-t="2195.

9">name of Jesus, I cast you out of this home. You do not belong here, you are <span data-t="2199.

5">not welcome here, type of thing. Isn't that equally dangerous? Because you see on these shows people <span data-t="2207.

3">saying, Oh, it's always good to bless your home, it's always good to do this, it's always <span data-t="2211.

6">good to do that. Isn't that kind of what you did in a sense that you open <span data-t="2216.

9">yourself up to be a target?

Speaker 136:59

That's a very good question, and it kind of falls into a slight gray area. The and <span data-t="2228.

8">the reason I say that is the exorcism of place or locale falls into a lesser category <span data-t="2237.

4">of authority that's needed. For example, a priest does not have to get the approval of a <span data-t="2244.

6">bishop for that. The priest himself can decide to undertake this action by his own accord. But <span data-t="2256.

6">that doesn't mean that lay folk should be doing this willy-nilly. I I do think that it <span data-t="2263.

1">exposes the person that's doing it to a greater risk, and it could even open a door <span data-t="2271.

8">to the progression of possession. I like that phrase. I'm gonna use that from here on out. <span data-t="2279.

0">Obsession, oppression, possession, and then I don't know if you can really say perfect possession is in <span data-t="2285.

8">that progression or not, regardless. Yeah, I think it is fundamentally a very dangerous move. If you <span data-t="2293.

0">don't know what you're doing and you don't have the authority of the church on your side, <span data-t="2298.

5">then it's a dangerous act. And that may be a controversial take, but I don't see how <span data-t="2304.

5">it could be anything but that.

Speaker 238:26

It reminds me of folks that say, Oh, I I I believe and use the power of <span data-t="2311.

8">myself to get through like a cleansing of a home or something like that. You do realize <span data-t="2317.

3">this thing is not afraid of you, exactly.

Speaker 138:39

And as Martin himself said, Well, the supernatural is more powerful than further natural, preternatural is <span data-t="2329.

4">a lot more powerful than any human could ever hope to be, or group of humans could <span data-t="2334.

7">ever hope to be. So you are deliberately on your own authority challenging something that could eat <span data-t="2343.

1">your lunch without any problems at all. Doesn't work like that.

Speaker 239:06

It's very dangerous. One final thought that I have, and I think this could tie in <span data-t="2353.

8">perfectly after we complete going over hostage to the devil, exorcisms in other belief systems. It'd be <span data-t="2362.

4">interesting to cover that to see how they view it and the similarities.

Speaker 139:28

It would, especially if we look at the how it's done through the other Abrahamic traditions, <span data-t="2379.

9">and then maybe skirting outside of that. Yeah, it would be an interesting set of topics to <span data-t="2385.

8">take on, but I think only if we can get subject matter experts to help us in <span data-t="2392.

4">that understanding.

Speaker 239:53

Because I I would be really interested to hear how an imam would handle a possession <span data-t="2400.

7">case and how maybe in some certain situation someone is possessed by a jinn and there's no <span data-t="2410.

2">imam around, right? How would you know an exorcist handle that who is based in Christianity? Vice <span data-t="2417.

5">versa, you know what I mean? Because in the Islamic theology, I don't want to call dinn <span data-t="2423.

7">demons, they're a race of fire, they're a creation. Some of them are evil, some of them <span data-t="2429.

8">are good, some of them are neutral. So it'd be interesting to un try and understand how <span data-t="2434.

8">that overlaps.

Speaker 140:35

Did you see that episode of evil that actually directly addresses this? No, no, I have not.

It was really good, actually. There's a little girl who fires kept happening around her, and <span data-t="2448.

9">that's because she was being possessed by this vagina frit. And yeah, it it becomes a whole <span data-t="2456.

8">like plot line. Thing about evil is that it is a highly entertaining show. Some of its <span data-t="2463.

4">depictions are really interesting and unique. Do not attempt to read any kind of accurate lore from it.

Same thing with like X-Files. Yeah, it presented a lot of ideas. They were all wrong, <span data-t="2481.

3">but they were still interesting ideas. I used to have a field day like criticizing the X-Files <span data-t="2488.

6">for its takes on certain religious aspects back when I was in grad school because I was <span data-t="2494.

3">insufferable like that.

Speaker 241:35

But you know maybe we could do an episode like that one day, debunking the X-Files.

Speaker 141:41

That would actually be fun. I would like that. Anyway, I want to thank you all for <span data-t="2509.

1">listening to us ramble. I mean, this is a really important topic, and we're going back to <span data-t="2515.

4">some of the most authoritative sources, and I would dare say, at least within the last hundred <span data-t="2523.

0">years, the most important work that has catapulted taught of the demonic into the secular world that <span data-t="2532.

4">we find ourselves, and for that alone, it should be treated with respect.

Speaker 242:18

No, I completely agree. And the last thing I'll say before you close out the show, JJ, <span data-t="2543.

3">if you have this book and you read the appendix, which we'll cover in depth next episode, <span data-t="2548.

6">don't look up the ritual, don't try it yourself, don't get yourself into any trouble. Whether you're <span data-t="2554.

0">a believer or non-believer, don't go messing with shit you don't know.

Speaker 142:38

Someone who has done that, I urge you not to follow in my stupid example. So, uh, <span data-t="2565.

4">for listeners of Southern Demonology, where can people find you, Chris?

Speaker 242:49

You can find the wandering road on Apple, Spotify, all major podcast platforms. If you want <span data-t="2576.

3">to reach us on TikTok, we are at TWR Podcast. If you want to give us a follow <span data-t="2584.

1">on Instagram, which I think you should, we are at TW Road Podcast. If you want to <span data-t="2589.

5">follow our Facebook page, just search the Wandering Road on Facebook, give us a like on there. <span data-t="2594.

2">You can reach us via email, which I know you want to. I know you have some <span data-t="2597.

6">stories, I know some of you are shy. Just shoot us an email. You don't even have <span data-t="2602.

0">to come onto the show. You don't even have to tell us who you are. If you <span data-t="2605.

8">just want to send a blurb of whatever experience you had, same with JJ's show. This is <span data-t="2610.

9">a paranormal, supernatural, safe space. We're not gonna judge you. We'll talk about it, we'll provide some <span data-t="2616.

2">commentary like we always do. But under no circumstance will we ridicule someone for any submission that <span data-t="2623.

0">they send to us.

Speaker 143:43

And the email I want to reiterate that this is a safe space, period.

Speaker 243:48

Yeah, because I've been to told people things about my experiences, and they look at you <span data-t="2633.

4">like you have 10 heads. But our email address is twroadpodcast at gmail.com. Shoot us an email. <span data-t="2640.

9">We'll love to have you on the show, would love to hear your experiences.

Speaker 144:04

And for Southern Demonology, we're of course on all major podcasting platforms. You can find and <span data-t="2651.

7">listen to, listen to all episodes and find our social links at southerndemonology.com.

Speaker 244:17

Thanks for listening, all we really appreciate it. Share the show with your friends, like, subscribe, <span data-t="2663.

2">help us grow. We love doing this, and we would like to do this for many more <span data-t="2668.

1">years to come and make this our full-time gig and put out a great product for everyone <span data-t="2673.

6">that listens.

Speaker 144:34

Highly accurate.

Speaker 244:35

That would be nice. Hope you enjoyed today's episode. Hope you have a good one.

Speaker 144:39

Stay safe out there. Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.

com, which offers links to all of our social media and episodes. Southern Demonology is solely owned, <span data-t="2699.

9">produced, and edited by myself, and the intro and outro music are composed by me as well. <span data-t="2707.

5">If you have a moment, please rate, like, and share this podcast, as it is the best <span data-t="2714.

2">way to help support my work. As always, I am JJ, and it has been a pleasure <span data-t="2721.

0">to speak to you today.

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