Are you interested in angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, tales, and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, sit back, relax, and welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more.
Hello all. Welcome back to another episode of Southern Demonology. As always, I'm your host, JJ. I only have two items to discuss before we get into the second part of the interview with Victoria, aka the demon folklorist. However, the first one is a doozy. A member of our Discord server has started a new writing project. More innocent times may have called it a blog called Scaring the Kids. The goal is to explore the idea of kids and horror. What scares them, what scares the author, and what is scary to parents in general.
I had the honor of reading the site and I walked away extremely impressed. So much so that I asked if we could do a collaboration where I feature one of the author's stories as a listener inbox feature. So here is the story. This is what scares me most from the site scaring the kids. Several years ago, my daughter was having bad dreams. Totally normal, right? Right. She was seven or so. And I sat with her before we went to bed and asked her to tell me about the dream she's been having. So I don't know about you, but by the time my kids go to bed, I am done.
I am a shell of a human who has been asked for snacks, snitched to, and heard the call, slash, screech, slash cajole of mom so many times that my ability to respond with any sincerity has dried up. Only sleep and lots of coffee can reset me at this point. Basically, I'm asking my kiddo about her dream, only to meet the minimum standard of parental engagement. What she said made my body do that thing while it feels like your blood stops moving and your fingers suddenly get cold. What did you say?
I said there is a lady who just stands outside my window looking at me. She looks scary. Like she's covered in black pink. What the what?
I'm forward and try not to show it. Say something reassuring, idiot, I think. You're scaring her. Does she say anything?
No. She just watches me. Is she in the house? No. She's always standing outside the window.
Always? Oh man. Keep it together, Sarah. Why do you think she's covered in paint?
Well, she's all black and shiny. Even in her eyes and her clothes.
Okay. I nod smiling. Then I stop smiling because I'm afraid it's one of those panicked, manic-looking smiles. To recap, my sweet seven-year-old daughter has been having recurring dreams of a woman covered in black paint or liquid evil, standing outside of her window and staring at her. Yep. Demonic. Totally demonic. A conclusion any reasonable person would make, right? So I did what any loving, not overreactive parent would do. I told her that we needed to pray over her dreams. I think this made it worse.
See, at this point, my kiddo understands that in our house, prayer is used for two things. To say thanks and to ask for help for people who are hurt or sad. Or in danger. I should say that her religious education has always been very age appropriate. It's mostly consisted of concepts that are best explained and crafts and fun songs with hand motions. I say a prayer before I leave the room. A very calm, very soothing, very sweet-toned prayer. The gist of it is this keep that evil SOB away from my daughter. The dreams eventually stopped.
And I forgot about the lady covered in black paint for a while. When I started brainstorming ideas for posts on this blog, this particular chat with my daughter sprang right to the front of my mind. I am a spiritual person, and I am open to the idea that what we can see and what we have access to is not all there is. I love learning about the spiritual world, the many names of God and biblical history, spiritual warfare, the supernatural, and the pertinatural. And that stuff can get scary.
It's that nervousness under the thrill of the scare that draws me to supernatural horror so much more than other subgenres. All that to say, our dream reminded me of the idea of demonic infestation, the stuff of haunted house stories. It or they make themselves known, but from a bit of a distance. Mark chapter 5. That's a terrifying read. Something about the matter-of-fact presentation of this unholy occurrence really gets me. I will absolutely be exploring the degrees of demonic possession as this blog unfolds.
Unless it takes a left turn and morphs into a blog about couponing or something like that. It's a topic I can't get enough of. But my casual lesson methodic research on this topic has given me just enough knowledge to make me dangerous. Not to the demon, of course, but to my daughter. I think I scared her more than her nightmare did. You can find that link to her site on the Friends of the Show page on Southern Demonology.com or in the show notes. Wednesday movie night continues. Last week we watched The Vigil, which was absolutely excellent. This Wednesday at 9 p.m.
Eastern, we'll be watching Deliver Us, a documentary about exorcism and people's issues in everyday life. Feel free to join our Discord server for a free film and excellent conversation. And as a heads up, we typically also watch an episode from the Phenomenal Creep Show TV series after. And now to the main part. The second part of the interview with Victoria. Here we go into deeper discussion of demonic packs, highlighted by discussion of the film Hereditary. Spoilers abound. So if you haven't seen it, and I highly recommend you do so, then skip to 10 minutes 40 seconds to avoid them.
We also delve deeper into the classification system she devised and then wrap things up by going over her writing process. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the final part of the interview with the demon folklorist. The link to her website can be found on southerndemonology.com and in the show notes.
The movie Hereditary, I think, is the best example of what a demon pact looks like. Because who really wins in that movie? Have you seen it?
I convinced a coworker to finally see it because it is, in my opinion, probably the best horror film to come out since the original Exorcist.
Absolutely. And it is the most accurate.
Yep.
I'm writing something eventually on which parts of it are especially accurate because when I watched it, I realized there was not very many errors because Ariaster went through the actual demonolatry literature on Payman and did his research. Right. Hereditary, it ends with Peter being possessed. We don't really know what happened to Charlie's soul. We know that the mom and then the grandma are dead. So who really is reaping the rewards is my question at the end. Doesn't look like anybody is because Payman now has Peter's body. He doesn't need us now.
And that's what the whole the grandmother was trying to say, which is our sadness pales in the rewards. So not the best eloquent way to say it, but they're sitting there and they're just like, so who gets it? Who gets the money? Is it the followers? Because it kind of seems like maybe they'll get more from payment being on Earth. Who wins in this scenario? I don't think anybody did. And yet that is kind of the point. When you make a deal with something you don't understand that is not human, they can do whatever they want.
Exactly. Not is not human, has never been human, never will be human.
Exactly. So when I see things like um, I don't know if you saw the Aladdin movie that came out somewhat recently. I was like, Jin are not human, and they're never gonna be human. Don't ever say that to me again.
Exactly. In fact, there is a I don't know if it's still on there or not, but there is a phenomenal trilogy of movies about gin that it goes into you know the folklore, and no, not all of it is correct, but yeah, it is such grippingly powerful stuff that's really well done, especially the first one. The other ones not quite so much, but but yeah, it mixes in Turkish magical traditions with like deep folklore on gens, which what was it called? I don't I will have to go off and and look.
Um is it Wishmaster?
Because I've seen that one.
No, it's not okay, because I was gonna say that one wasn't particularly accurate for what I remember.
No, no, no. In fact, I brought on someone who is a Turkish Muslim to just uh give like kind of a a deep background not only into Turkish magical practices, but also you know, uh just a a general refresher course on Jen, because I I'm not an expert on them either by any stretch of the other.
Yeah, definitely not. But they're fascinating.
They are, oh my gosh. I mean, and that and uh the other movie that was out Under the Shadow. That's what it was. Sorry. That was a phenomenal movie because it didn't go into any folklore whatsoever uh or or mythology behind them, but it just focused upon the terror that they can inspire. It was good stuff.
So that concept when they take an existing folkloric thing and turn it into their own thing is called the folkloresque because it feels like folklore, but when you look it up later, it's like, oh, this isn't actually related to anything. But I actually love the folkloresque because it it gives a realm for our imaginations to fill in the blanks of what folklore doesn't tell us.
True. Oh, that and it just inspires such interest in the topic. Oh, you know, when I watched The Prophecy and I saw this ancient language being written on the cave wall that depicted the war in heaven, I had to know what that was, and I couldn't find a single person who actually knew what it was. It took me like three years to track that down, and it was so well researched that you know, yeah, I finally tracked it down to like a a seventh, uh 16th century book on magic. I mean it was fascinating. It was awesome.
So I love the prophecy too because uh Vigo Mortensen as Lucifer scared the hell out of me. He did that part so well.
Amen. That was such good stuff. I do want to go back to your thesis real quick because what you said really intrigued me. You know, in classical Catholic ways of thinking, there is only one class, there's only two classifications. It's you know, obsession and it's possession, and that's it. And I've had issues with that. I've broken it down to more, you know, obsession, then oppression, and then possession, but you've broken them down even further. And is oppression the the third type of category?
I did not make those up. I got them from Ed and Lorraine Warren, who I know there's a lot of like, oh, they were frauds, they were this, they were that, but they do have the widest amount of literature about the subject out in the world. So when I was doing my folklore thesis, I used three of their books because it doesn't matter in folklore if it's true, the story is in the world. So somebody thinks it's true. So the story is true.
We have like encroachment, which is when they're trying to get in, then we have infestation, they're in, and then oppression when they're breaking down someone's mind. And I have personally experienced that. It is horrifying and terrifying, and I would never wish it upon anybody.
Oppression typically, at least in the obsession in the classical sense of the word, simply means that a a demon is banging on the gates, it's trying.
If that is kind of the the third category, I'm just kind of like trying to jive uh I know that you're dealing with different definitions, and you know that's great. I I love more specificity rather than you know the lack thereof. But if if something is already b bothering you, then I wasn't aware that there's ever been any kind of requirement in order to do that. Do you see a a difference there?
So I think the requirement happens because demons are not very common in the world. There are very few people who have come to me since my thesis was published and tried to contact me through a little bit of light stalking on social media. It was before I had my website up, and they were like, I had this experience, and they would tell me about it. And most of all, what they wanted was someone to listen, which I was happy to do.
But I had to tell like almost everybody except for one person, I do not think this was a demon professionally, based on everything that I've researched, because paranormal television and even movies try to sell the idea that, oh, these are like really common. You should be afraid of this. And it's like, they're not actually that common. When something's already bothering you, it's already in. It's already somehow found that foothold into your world. Because otherwise, demons would be so much more widespread and they would be interacting with people so much more.
So I started to realize that there are rules, they're bound by rules. Because why then isn't it happening more? So we have like the laws and then the other things that I named in my thesis, like already inhabited or it was sent, because demons don't seem to be able to usually break those barriers. I personally think what happened to me is that it was sent, though I could not tell you by who. Does that answer your question?
It does. Yeah, thank you for that. I'm definitely not trying to mix definitions by any stretch of the word. I'm just I was just trying to straighten things up in my own head there. So apologize.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I know that you are currently in the process of writing. Can you tell us a little bit about that? If not, that's perfectly fine. There's no pressure.
Oh, yeah, of course. I am one of those people who is working on like many, many different things at once because that's, I guess, who I am. I'm working on a book currently about demonic phenomena because I feel I have insight into that subject based off my system, which is separated by sight, sound, smell, and feelings that are associated with the demonic. And I'm in the process of expanding it based off all the other books that are out there that I've come across, besides just the Warren's work. So I'm writing about that. I'm about maybe 65% through the book.
And then I'll be looking for publishers. I had a little bit of interest, but they didn't like my original idea, which was to just include the system. So I put in the people's stories in there too, as like little bullet points. So I wasn't telling the full story, I was just telling at that moment in time that this happened. And I don't know if that's going to be of any interest to people. But the reason I created this whole system for my thesis is because I wanted to help. I felt demons are so scary when you do have an actual encounter with one.
They what most people talk about is that you're standing in the presence of evil. It wants to hurt you, it hates you. And you can feel that malice coming off them in like an evolutionary way of like fight or flight, but there's no way to fight a demon, at least not in a physical way. Most people want to run when they see one or feel one or hear it or, you know, whatever happens. So I wanted to help I. I felt they were scary enough. They didn't need the cloak of mysteriousness to make them any more scary. Kind of spurred all that because of what happened to me.
I originally thought it was a demon and then my classification system told me it did not behave like one. So it must be something else.
I love that concept. Anything that we can use to debunk is always uh or at least to classify and to come to know is always a fascinating thing. The only problem that I've ever ran across when trying to do this is either you rely upon holy text, you rely upon first person or third person account, or you can try to go to the source. And the only problem with the source is it is actively trying to deceive on any and all levels. Uh how have you tried to combat the this information issue?
Um in folklore, when I was doing the thesis, if it was less of an issue because it was in the world. But when I'm writing my book now, I'm like, okay, does this piece of phenomena come up in other narratives or is it just this one? And then there's the issue of sometimes you have ghosts and other types of spirits in the same house or you know, enclosure with a demon. You also have to pick through different types of phenomena to figure out okay, has this come up in other narratives? Has the demon ever like thrown something and it hit somebody? The answer is yes, by the way.
Have more people experienced it, or is it this just this one? That's when I put them, that piece of phenomena on the back burner to see if I can find evidence it's ever happened before. It's not perfect, unfortunately. Our memories as humans are malleable. But I feel like the folklore perspective tells me that there's always a remnant of truth, even if the person doesn't realize it. And using the skills that I've acquired through my masters, I feel I can pick through that and find the similarities and the things that they're trying to communicate.
But I don't like try and push what I think is happening onto the narrative. The narrative is the the data point.
Gotcha. Yeah. Cross-referencing is always a good thing. And honestly, being able to use academic skills that you that you learn in the classroom or just do independent study is to see it applied to such a more than worthwhile task is uh is is rewarding to say the least. So that's beautiful.
Thank you.
Do you have a particular writing process just for those who are in the process of writing books or working on multiple different projects? I do love to see how every how you know each person approaches uh, you know, actually trying to bring that project to completion.
Absolutely. So it took me a while to figure out what really worked for me. But I got this tablet, it's called a remarkable. And there are other types of tablets like this. This one just worked best for me, where you can use it as a notebook and it will transcribe your text for you into a document, and then you can send it like that. So, what I do is I start with a very rough outline, and my outlines look crazy. I used to teach at Utah State um as a composition instructor. So I was teaching kids how to write for college because it was part of our tuition.
They paid tuition and we taught, and I hated it because I don't like that kind of attention or to be the boss. But um, I showed them one of my outlines in its absolute rough form, and then I showed them how I turned it into an actual outline. I have my thoughts basically everywhere in several pages, and then I start to organize them. Be like, okay, this is one, this is two, this is a whole different idea, that'll be three, that sort of thing. And then I write it out on the tablet and then edit it from there.
I know some writers who detest an outline, others who, you know, create uh the most rigid forms and you know, or a script and they have to work off from it. Uh yeah. So thank you for sharing your your process because uh it's always illuminating to be able to hear that.
Mm-hmm. Then I realized I was focusing on the book. So I'm also doing a bunch of other stuff. I do write about demons quite a bit. I've been writing for Haunt Jaunts. They're a website that pays me to do articles. So if you guys have something paranormal, definitely send it to Courtney. Go to hauntjounts, I believe.net. And then it's actually just hauntjounts.net. Sorry. It's not like I believe in there. See if she's interested in your idea because she gave me my start into writing about the paranormal. And I just my confidence grew from there because she was my biggest cheerleader.
She was like, this is amazing. I love this. So first I started with like Amityville and the Bell Witch, because I had read about them. I had read Jay Anson's book, and then I read a legend of the Bell Witch that sounded actually demonic just from the things it was talking about. So I wrote, like, okay, are these actually demonic cases? Amineyville? I don't I don't really think so. I'm not convinced, at least by Jay Anson's writing. It could be. I'm not going to pretend that like I'm the expert on what actually happened because I was not even born yet. I was not there.
But in my professional opinion, I don't think it was, at least based off his writing. And then I started writing about mass shootings and demons a little bit later on, about like whether they're really connected. Personally, I don't think they're that connected as people seem to fear. I think a lot more is going on. So I wrote about that as well. That was actually because me and a couple of smaller creators on Twitter had somebody troll us and be really horrifically mean.
And it started because I told him I thought his opinion was unresearched of why he thought like demons are causing all of these mass shootings. Right. Happens.
It does, unfortunately.
I didn't get the brunt of it. Uh one of my other creators did, and it was it was horrific to watch because like they were sitting there behind burner accounts and just creating new ones to keep going. I unfortunately feel a little bit like responsible. I know that he was the one who actually went after them himself, but like I was the one who engaged with him. I shouldn't have. But I didn't like that he was sitting there correcting me when I had done all this work just to be told by some guy on Twitter that I didn't know what I was talking about.
I'm I'm sorry, that's awful.
That's okay. I figure it was like my my first real foray into what people are really like out there. Because I had never had it that sort of thing uh directed at me.
Dear Lord, unfortunately it does. So you also have a website, correct?
Mm-hmm. Demonfolklars.com.
All of this information will be on Southern Demonology.com under Friends of the Show. Uh so and also in the show notes, so feel free to check out all of Victoria's links. I know you're going to like it. Just reading about her on Twitter with all of her tweets is always such a joy. It's one of the highlights of the day. And I think it can be for everyone else as well. I know that you said you're 65% done, but do you have like an anticipated finish date for your current work, your current book?
I'm trying to get it done by the end of August, but that that may change because I'm working on all this other stuff too. But I would like to get it in the world probably like, or at least to publishers by Halloween. I don't know when it would be out, or even if I could find someone who'd be interested in that. I hope so. Somebody liked my elevator pitch and it was enough to open up a conversation. So that was cool.
Oh, that's wonderful. Well, when it does come out, we will absolutely have you back on because I know that there's 101 things left on the table that we didn't get to talk about. Our time is unfortunately up, but I do want to thank you for all for everything. I will finish up with one last question. Is there anything else that you would like to either promote or uh to cover that in which we didn't have a chance to get to already?
Uh I just want to explain uh for people who are coming to my website for the first time. I write about demons, I write about horror movies, and I write about folklore. So if you any of those sound good to you, definitely go on there. I also have contact information in case anybody wants to hire me to do any of those things.
Well, thank you again for your time uh and for sharing your knowledge. It was a highly illuminating conversation. I thoroughly appreciate it. I can already anticipate the thousand conversations that this is going to launch just on our Discord alone. So thank you again. I really do appreciate it.
Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It was a really great conversation.
Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.com where you can find all of our social and podcasting links. Also, if you have a moment, please feel free to rate this podcast and leave any encouraging feedbacks that you may have. As always, I am JJ and it has been a pleasure getting to talk to you today.