Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, influence, and how to protect against the unknown? If so, then welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more. Hello all. Welcome back to Southern Demonology. As always, I am your friendly neighborhood ancient demonologist, JJ, and I have a good friend on the show with us today. I have been on his podcast, Garden of Doom, what is it, four times now? Three times? It's even at least four times.
Yeah, and discussing everything from Shintoism to uh the Ethiopic Orthodox Church to the Nephilim and a few other topics, and had a great time doing it. And in case you have never ran across the Garden of Doom, I wanted this to be your first introduction and a hearty recommendation from me. Mr. Jeff, you wanna give a quick intro to yourself? Sure. I'm Jeff Lippman.
JJ introduced himself as the ancient demonologist. I am like an ancient novice, but I think maybe I'm getting to an intermediate level, not of a demonologist, but maybe of a uh esoteric eclectic. About six months ago, I actually, so I had I started Garden of Doom, really like the name, but I started with a partner and and we, you know, we that didn't last very long, but the the name had a certain tie to what we were going to do at the time.
I also lost some guests uh due to the name, which was a little silly, and somewhere, and a few times along the line, there were people who I really just didn't feel belonged on a show called Garden of Doom. Perhaps I was overthinking it. So I had a spin-off called Garden Views. Uh and then just because of cancellations and reschedulings and and keeping the order of the shows, I just scrapped them both and I folded them into something called Garden of Thought.
So I figured I no longer have to distinguish what's the weekend show, what's the midweek show, what you know, and and so it's actually under Garden of Thought, but all the old Garden of Doom shows are there, all the old Garden of Views shows are there. Shows I didn't even number, there were bonuses or extra. Some were bonuses because they truly were bonuses, some I didn't number, because maybe I didn't exactly want to claim them.
But um, and there's actually also a third title under there, which started as the Book of Black, because my co-host was PJ Black, and it's now the Gospel of Thomas because my co-host is Mr. Thomas. And if you don't know who those people are, that just means that you're somewhat normal. They're both pro-wrestlers. Actually, PJ's retired. PJ was Justin Gabriel in WWE for five years. If you watch WWE, you know, late aughts to the you know early teens. And Mr. Thomas currently is in Major League Wrestling. And we talked to people in wrestling, but generally not about wrestling stuff.
And with PJ, he's a true esoteric. He just joined the the the Freemasons. So the stuff with we went deep with with folks on that show, actually. Some of the at least one of the guests has been on Garden of Thought and is booked to be on again. A guy named Aaron Stevens, who in WWE was Damian Sandow. So again, if he was sorry, the guy was the understudy for the Miz. He was like a stunt double, if you remember that shtick. Anyway, so those are sort of the three faces of Garden of Thought.
Probably more than you were banking on, but they're all on Apple, Spotify, Spreaker, Podbean, iHeart, you you name it. They're all over the place. Speaking of uh Freemasonry. Yep. That's fine. You know, you at some point you may find yourself as a uh co-guest with either Aaron Stevens and or PJ Black or some of the there's a bunch of wrestlers who are who are Freemasons.
I would absolutely love that. No, I love the in-depth. In fact, let me ask you about the cancellations, because I have suffered from that more than a few times myself. What was it about the name that gave people such hesitation? Do you guess?
Well, the first two to they weren't cancellations, they just were declines. Strangely, they were sisters. I knew their father through my father, who's 84 now, and one of them was a counterterrorism expert, and the other one ran a major urban hospital. Both of them would have been probably for the Garden Views title, but because the Garden of Doom was the feed it was on, like, I don't want to be on a show called Garden of Doom. Now there were a couple who, you know, this might fit into the Southern now, but they're not going to do it.
Anyway, the cancellations wasn't so much because of the name Garden of Doom. It was just because of, I mean, whenever you book podcasts, you you have some guests. Some cancel, some no show, some have very legitimate reasons, some seem to come up with excuses, reschedule, come up with excuses, reschedule again, come up with excuses, and some actually post, but most just ghost you for reasons unknown. The reason for the name change is because of the cancellations and rebookings with other guests, I couldn't really keep the order.
It was, it was, it was harder to make, you know, the weekend show, the Garden of Dune show, and the midweek show, the Garden View show, because I, you know, I was sometimes scrambling for guests. Now I always had two or three shows. At one time I had nine shows in the tank, so it wasn't a work. Right now, I currently have no shows in the tank theoretically, though I I do have one Gospel of Thomas that's with the producer to be produced, and I do have one Garden of Thought that my wife hasn't. She's my producer, she hasn't edited yet. The Gospel of Thomas one, an outside producer does, though.
Uh the the actual producer of Wrestling Supicus is a wrestling sign. But that was more the reason. But I've had a spate, like the last 12 weeks, I've probably had more cancellations than actually shows that have happened, and it's sort of very frustrating. And you know, for a while I was like, you know, is this my sign? You know, and then I'm like, no, shut up. You're overthinking things as always.
Yeah, we all run into strings of bad luck, but I'm sorry about that. And I hope it uh that definitely reverses course because uh you you have always been a very fun and engaging interviewer. So I can't imagine people not wanting to talk to you.
Well, a couple of them have come back, and and I think for the most part, I think a lot of it has nothing to do with me. I mean, I think some people, A, they got too busy, or they're a little bit broken and probably got more broken. And, you know, while podcasting doesn't seem like it's necessarily a big taxing thing for someone to do, if everything's taxing for you to do, then it's it is. I mean, listen, I don't and I'm not being judgy, probably 10 or 11 years ago, like you know, I was uh, you know, at what you might call rock bottom. It was like a big ordeal.
You know, if you had asked me the podcast, then I mean, hey, the answer would be why, but you know, uh I I wouldn't have been able to do it. I probably would have said yes, and I'd and I might have ghosted someone as well. So, you know, but some of them came, you know, I think some of them were sort of caught up in other things, real or emotional. Some people were just really in, you know, Trump 2.0 funks, which I I guess I sort of get. And a couple have come back, and you know, we'll see. You know, my show has always benefited and suffered from variety. You know, it's sort of genre-defined.
So, you know, and I don't have the celebrity of like a Joe Rogan, so you know, it's not like people are gonna listen to me no matter what. But anyway, this is not this is not a tale of whoa, I you know, I'm I've got bookings, you know, all the way into the fall, and hopefully enough uh hopefully my little spate of cancellations is is over and all is happy uh, you know, Malok, leave me alone.
So speaking more of the your podcast in general, what's been your most unexpectedly mind-blowing interview or topic that you've had on the show so far?
Well, the first thing I'm gonna do is blow a little smoke your way. Because the Ethio Ethiopian Bible show that you did, which was July of 2024, is still routinely in my top 15 shows listened to every single month. Really? Yeah. I had no idea. Yeah, I and listen, don't get me wrong, it was a great show, it's a fascinating topic. But it is so stubbornly persistent. I mean, there have been there have been months where it's like near the top four or five over the more recent shows, which is that's unusual. I mean, I've had some strange shows. Okay, but the the probably the strangest show.
Okay, I've had two that were that I would say really took me off guard. One was with a fairly well-known New World Order Eliminati whistleblower. And he does make it to all the lists. I who comprises or or puts together those lists, I don't know. But uh his name is he goes by either Leo Young or Leo Zagami. It's the same person. I had him as Leo Zagami, but uh when his his e-newsletter, which still comes, it's generally under Leo Z Young.
Anyway, he he was telling me that that that Satan is basically in our computers, that the the actual, you know, biblical, historical Satan lives within the technology. And there was a bit of an irony that we were doing an interview on a podcast over computers and the internet and all that, and I asked him about that. He's like, Well, I mean, uh how to make a choice. You know, not everyone's buying my eight or twelve books. This this is how I get the message out. So it it's a calculated risk. So okay, fair enough answer.
And his solution to the problems, and since a few other people have said the same thing, is pray and live a pastoral life, more simply, basically, you know, sort of grizzly atoms with some amenities, um, which, you know, strikes me as being near impossible in in this day and age, unless you're like, you know, uh, you know, bear grills is he used to be man versus one. So unless you're like you have his skills, like I I think it would be very difficult. Another was it was a wrestler. He went by Raider, which is not his actual real wrestler name.
That's how he went by Raider because I guess he's a Raiders fan. And he's a luchador. So he wears a mask anyway, but he wasn't wearing his wrestling mask. He was just wearing a uh so he was using a fake name and a fake mask to double hide his identity.
And he went into the into the he's also a Mason and and he said thing, I mean, probably things that nobody who listens to shows like ours or or you know has left YouTube alone on and the algorithm feeds them stuff long enough, but into the you know, the Rothschilds and the way back when the Rafaim, it was the Rakha Khan, Rakha Khan, Rothschilds, you know, which is the Jews.
I'm like, I I don't know how Rakh a Khan makes Rothschilds, you know, 4,000 years later, but you know and it was the only time that I felt the need to put a disclaimer on on one of my show notes, and I talked to PJ about it because it's his friend, and I don't want to be like, you know, wow, you know, this is good. And he's like, Yeah, I actually thought that I was thinking the same thing, actually. He's like, he's like that. That was a little much. I'm like, okay, cool, you know, because that's fine.
It's funny because PJ is uh at least last I I mean, I talked to him all the time, but I I don't get into his personal last I knew about his personal life, he was converting to Judaism and he was marrying an Israeli girl. I I I I uh I mean they both live here in the US. He's South African. Um just out of curiosity, I should ask him if he's uh if he's still can if he's converted to Judaism or not, because that isn't an easy trip. It's you don't just get to you know go in the water and say, I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and you're reborn.
It's like it's like a Jews don't make it hard. It's like a two or three year ordeal of like all sorts of like baths and trainings and tests and whatever. It's like going to graduate school.
Yeah, it is. And um honestly, like I went through the same thing when I converted from Protestantism over to Catholicism. It was I wanted to take my time with it, I wanted to make sure that I knew exactly what I was getting into. And it didn't help that at the time I was also dating a Catholic girl, and I wanted to make sure that my feelings for her were not unnecessarily or unduly influencing my decision to convert. So I took two or three years and made really, really dang sure that yes, this is what I wanted. So I I think it's a good process.
That and the easier something is, the less it means, you know.
So if you are a people who still have not recovered population-wise from the Holocaust, there's still less of you net in the world than there was eighty years ago. You think you'd make the the the cost of entry a little bit easier, but no.
So I guess there's something for you know, depending who you listen to, 5,000 years of continuity, uh uh as as I've come to learn in my garden journey, you know, probably much closer to, you know, 3200 years, 3,000 years, maybe 2,500 years, exactly when all the continuity and when actually sort of, you know, Hebrews turned to Judeans, turned to Israelites, turned to Jews, and and when Judaism was actually a you know a sort of a singular religion, you know, uh you know, when was the Torah actually written? Was it on that mountain?
Well, I guess it's Mount Sinai, uh you know, over 70 days or whatever, or was it uh, you know, maybe more in uh you know uh Babylon, you know, uh uh uh a few centuries later. That's you know, those are interesting questions because like uh you know Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish new year, and I'm like, the new year of what? Like it's literally the new year of in the beginning. Let there be light is sort of that's that's and I'm like it is. You know, I I I I don't know. I thought it was like, you know, the covenant with Abraham. Nope, not not that, or the founding of a temple.
No, it it's like literally that's that's it's like the in the beginning, I guess, you know, when when you know the God made the you know, blew the the winds that separated the heavens from the waters and you know, and you know didn't depending on which list in Genesis, I mean, man came on the sixth day or the second day, depending on which page you're reading.
So, I mean it it you know, I I guess minus one day or six days really doesn't make a difference between friends when you're talking fifty, eight hundred years, but still uh you know, the when does something start is you know I was having the same discussion actually on the Gospel of Thomas, which is not a religious show, it's just because the my guy is Thomas and I saw the Book of Black. Like we were talking to vicious Vicki Venudo, who's a female wrestler, obviously, and I'm like, you know, we just celebrated our you know, the 4th of July. It's uh year 249. But is it?
We declared our independence, but we didn't gain it. The British didn't surrender until 1781. The Constitution wasn't even written until like 1787 and wasn't ratified until a couple of years later. So really is the United States 249 years old, or is it is it more like 236 years old? Or when does when does thing starts? I mean, you know this is probably not the rivulet that you thought we were gonna go down.
No, no, no. It's uh it's always a fascinating subject because it is the more peculiar, uh the more particular items that you consider, the harder it is to nail something down. But all I know is that the fra the the the passages that you were speaking about has some of the most beautiful Hebrew that has ever been written. Or let there be light and there was light. It's just very poetic.
Absolutely. Yeah, and you know it in like 13 different languages, so I mean that's which is extremely impressive.
It's always fun. But I I too have had a guest in which I've had to slap a disclaimer on so I I know exactly what you're talking about, and I think I've only yeah, I have only done that one time myself, and just the ideas were so alien to what I thought could or should be possible that I'm like, yeah, I I don't want to sound like I am endorsing this myself.
And to not sound like a total hypocrite, but even after I I felt like the conversation with Leah was a little bit manic, and and I'm not sure that I subscribe to much of what he says. After hearing like a lot of the billionaires and the tech people speak and hearing the disagreements between people like Peter Thiel and and Elon Musk and and different futurists from the very positive ones to the in the middle to the you know, you know, whoever the transhumanist, there's a spectrum of that. I'm not so sure that Leo wasn't wrong.
I'm not sure, I'm not sure that's actually Satan there, but I'm not I'm not sure that there's really much good going on in these machines. And yes, it's a tool, and everything's a tool, and we always overcome tools, but I don't know. This tool is pretty ubiquitous and it's easy to fool people, and the damage has already been done over the last 20 to 40 years where nobody believes anything, to the point where there are chemists posting there's no such thing as chemtrails.
I'm like, yeah, I would really like to put repost that's but what if in 25 years it turns out there are such a thing as chemtrails? And like it's like I'm like you know, it's like there's no certainty of anything. I I consider myself a critical thinker, but like critical thinking can become a com so what's the word I'm looking for? Like an obsession where it never ends.
Yeah, true. But speaking of uh Musk and Teal are the ultimate tools, and I've hated them long before it even became remotely popular to do so. So my god, that most recent interview that Teal gave to what was it, the Wall Street Journal?
No, it was uh Ross Stoud. Um actually in New York Times. He's like their their young conservative editorialist columnist. But yeah, when he said, Do you believe humanity need deserves to live?
And like there's like a 45-second pause before he gets to me, hemmed and hauled. And if you can't answer a basic softball question like that, then you've got some major issues going on.
Yeah, I mean, if your name isn't Thanos Galactus or Ultron, I mean, that shouldn't be the answer. I mean, you want to talk about overpopulation, scarcity of resources, and whatever, but the actual existence of humanity, if you are in fact a leading human, that's that's uh that's a bit of a troublesome one.
That would be accurate. Let me ask you this. So you described yourself as an esoteric apprentice, and I actually really like that turn of phrase. That's a that's a very interesting one. What's your process like when you're prepping for a guest whose topic is outside of your wheelhouse? How do you go about doing that?
It's a really great question. And and to assume I have a process is such a beautiful compliment. This has really been a journey and it really has been an exploration into things that, you know, sort of almost accidentally stumbling into learning about things that I didn't know about, and I'm really too lazy to study myself. So I have somebody like you on to tell me about it. But I'm a good listener. And I'm good at making connections and issue spotting. Uh so I'm trained as a lawyer, but I've I've always read a lot. Uh, you know, I'm not saying I read all the classic, but but I've read a lot.
I mean, I'm I put in those like the Da Vinci Co. type of, you know, religious thrillers and the techno thrillers that all have like the fringe science in there, and what if this happens and what if that happens? And I read comic books when I was a kid. So I have, you know, played Dungeons and Dragons and I read about mythology and King Arthur. So I the foundation of things are there. It's just I never put them together. And after listening to enough people, I started making connections. Now, some of them were absurd, some of them were just like, you know, kid connections.
And I've had people say to me, No, no, no, no, you're confusing correlation with causation. That's not a cognate, or they're saying they're the same character, it's just a different name, it's language drift, you know, sure, it's the same, but they didn't they didn't need to pray for water here because they had water. They needed to actually, you know, pray for the sunlight because it was always raining here, or whatever. So, you know, that lead god, you know, wisdom overtook, you know, or sacrifice became more important than became being the Lord of Thunder, um, and things like that.
But so the process is find guests who are going to tell me about things that I think I'm not gonna know about them. Most of them don't. I mean, a lot of people sort of repeat what other people have said, or but they're so interesting. Everybody is different in their own way, their own journey. And and whatnot. And I don't know, through through it all, I feel like I understand the world, but there's still so much that I don't understand. But the the scariest part is that I understand how little we actually know or agree on, right down to there is no actual agreement.
What is the definition of life? Like biologists disagree if bacteria is like the this, you know, and microbes are are like the end of life, or you know, and whether a virus is life or not. And apparently a virus can't reproduce until it's in another host, but it does reproduce at that point. It adapts to survive. I mean, that sounds like life to me. So there's there's not even a consensus as to what's like there's not a consensus as to where continents end, or even what a continent is. I mean, it's like all these things that we take for granted.
Like in my industry, it's called legal fictions. You know, if you file your your deed of title with land records, the government says you own this acreage of land. And legal fiction as it's posted, the entire world knows that and and and will respect it. We just have these things out there, and and then you have someone like uh you know Putin who's like, Ukraine is always part of Russia. No, it wasn't. Well, uh well, it was sometimes, and they speak Russian, but they also speak Ukrainian.
I mean, there's you know, there's two probably two million Russian speakers, as well as probably, I don't know, a hundred thousand Russian speakers in in Metro Baltimore. Is is is that part or, you know, is it is you know, if six of them say we want to be part of Russia, does that does that give them a claim of right on on Baltimore? I mean, you know, so I it's just like the world is it's a delicate balance, it's a if it's even a balance.
And and whether you love Trump or you don't like Trump, basically he's just a guy who sort of does things first and says, I don't care what those things say. And then, you know, some of the rules might apply, some of them might, some of the rules might apply and they can stop them, some of the rules are applied and they don't stop them, some of the rules he makes himself and decides not to like the the the whole TikTok ban, he's the one who who got that through Congress. And then he's like, I'm not gonna enforce it.
Yeah, then TikTok has been in a flurry as of late because there are all these rumors that it was going to be sold to Oracle, and everyone was posting all of these shorts of, yeah, I'm not gonna move over to the new app, whatever it's called. And then, of course, TikTok came out and said, Well, no, that was all false speculation, that didn't happen. And now then there's all this talk about the the current and the South Ocean that had completely reverse course, and that too is completely fake. And it's just, yeah, you you never know what you're going to get as a mixed bag on that one.
Yeah, never. Absolutely never.
You're absolutely right. So I don't know if I really answer, but my my process is is mostly to listen, to try to ask intelligent questions. And I guess I'm smart enough and I've heard from enough people that I can ask intelligent questions, or at least they pass enough for intelligent questions that the intelligent guests can answer them properly or steer their question in the in the correct direction, which can lead to actual intelligent questions. So I'm also not afraid to be wrong because the whole premise of the show is me learning about things that I don't know about already.
So I don't expect to be right. I expect some of my questions for them to go, now you're entirely wrong about that. Okay, cool. All right, well, well, tell me why I'm wrong and tell me what it really is. And and and that's great also. Uh you know, if I don't know the definition of what a rare earth, you know, metal is, tell me. That's great. That I'm the straw person for the audience because most people don't know squad either. There's a whole lot of people, more people closer to me than to the expert in you know, geology or volcanology or volcans, you know, or southern demons.
Yeah, I uh I'm right there with you on that one. Even though I might know more than the average common person when it comes to, you know, Second Temple Judaism or uh the Ethiopic Orthodoxy, it doesn't mean that I know Jack Squat about anything else, and I rely upon me's or subject matter experts in order to elucidate me on that. So I am uh I am right there with you on that one.
Yeah, it's not gonna help you, it's not gonna help you get the right homeowners insurance.
So go but going back to that one time that you added a disclaimer on Fanes, when if you're covering fringe theology or paranormal lore that you necessarily may not believe in, how do you balance that right set of skepticism and open-mindedness?
Probably similarly to you. I mean, I early on I adopted that I am inviting guests on, they said yes, sort of like the old-fashioned guest privileges. As long as the guest is not abusive to me, I'm I and they're answering my questions, I'm gonna let them know. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not. I'm asking questions. I'm there on uh information-finding mission. And I almost said fact-finding. I I it's not necessarily a fact-finding mission. It might be facts to that person. They may be facts in fact, but it's an information finding.
For instance, I I didn't know what the black Israelites were, and and I found a school, that's what that's what they call their their houses, schools, where the uh the captain and the lieutenant would speak to me. Um turns out what I thought was was black Israelite isn't. You probably know what it is because that's you know right down your alley. Now I know what black Israelite is, at least from their perspective. Uh and and then a lot of people telling me they're this, that, and the other thing. I'm like, well, that's not what he said, but maybe you're making the same mistake I did.
And maybe you're confusing them with beta Israelites, which is a different thing, which I haven't found an expert on yet. Or maybe you're confusing it with Rastafari. I mean, there's a large African diaspora with a whole diverse panoply of beliefs. But for all I know, there could be different sex within black Israelitism as well. I mean, there could be 23 different, you know, subgroups, you know, that are have arguments about, you know, like the divinity of Mary or whatever. I don't know. I only spoke to one school.
But but I mean, I certainly didn't agree that that there were no black people in Africa, or maybe a few got over there, and the transatlantic slave trade what wasn't black people, that those are Hamites and they don't count. I mean, but somehow every Native American and Latino is is somehow black and an Israelite. But, you know, what we traditionally think of as black meaning African aren't. And somehow Asians don't count.
Uh, you know, Indi, you know, people from the Indian subcontinent and, you know, Sumatra and Bangladesh and so nah, you know, or I don't remember all the, but whatever it was. It was, you know, the logic of it doesn't make sense to me, but that wasn't the goal. The goal wasn't for it to make sense to me. The goal was to tell me what their logic is, what their tenets are, what their beliefs are, um, and you know, and and learn about that. And that's what I did. It's not for me to judge, it's for the, you know.
Back in the day, uh when Bill O'Reilly used to have the show, I mean, he was full of it, even back then, but he would say, he'd say, we report, you judge. Um or you decide. I actually mean that. So and I don't really report, I just, you know, uh help to, you know, I'm just sort of Virgil here and helping to, you know, guide and find the you know, get the information and hopefully get the right voices uh on things that you know the listener hasn't heard about, or at least wants to hear another voice on or hear about again. I mean, there's certain things that we you know, UFOology.
I mean, there is there's not a lot of new information there, or if there is, you know, you can question the you know, people saying, Well, we know the nine racers of aliens. Well, okay, we don't really know, but but but but but it's it's it's great listening. So that's my process is just to be a good listener and and try to remember as much as humanly possible and you know be an interactive, but to not make judgments with the guests, because they're the guests.
They, you know, you give them tea, you give them hospitality, you make sure they have a meal, that that nobody's gonna kill them in the middle of the night, and then when they go, if you know, you know, I'm not gonna talk bad about them when they go. But but you know, but once they go, you know, then it's like, yeah, well then knives are out or whatever, but it they they're granted safe passage.
I like that distinction of going on a information hunting expedition rather than trying to ferret out something like the truth. That's an interesting way of putting that.
Sometimes it's a moving target, and other times it isn't. And that's one of the frustrating things with this era, because everything feels to be like it's a moving target, you know, things that shouldn't be. But lots of things are. But you know, there's room, there's room for lots of things that that are religion. I mean, that that's I mean, you know, what happens when we die? What's a soul? I mean, there's lots of room for for reasonable good faith, you know, decision and debate. And there's lots of room for bad faith too.
I mean, divinity of Mary is a pretty good example of of one of the things that's uh you know could led to the death of a lot of people, you know, uh, you know, whether that's theological or or you know, it's just to make sure that there aren't any female goddesses in in monotheism, you know.
It's like sort of the you know, all all of the female gods, goddesses were for you know, sort of in in the pantheons, and you know, and at some point, you know, there's the mother earths and and you know, Gaia and and you know, as as the supreme, the holy mother, sacred mother, but you know, sort of, you know, I don't know if Judaism was the first or not, probably not because no one's ever the first, but you know, may Zoro Hestrianism or whatever, but at some point it but sort of all the dudes got in charge, and and then uh you know, and you know, then the Christians sort of d uh couldn't decide whether you know Mary giving birth was because she was divine or she was just uh you know the the perfect vessel.
You know, then it seems like Islam took it all back and said, Don't worry about any of that. Zumany was a prophet, is one god, it's definitely a dude. Men rule, girls drool. It's always an interesting question. Talk about dumbing it down, right?
Hey, you gotta start somewhere, I'm telling you. What's the one topic that you think is still totally underrated or misrepresented in the broader, I guess you could loosely call it the umbrella of the paranormal podcasting world? I know it's kind of a large topic.
Well, it's enormous, and and there's so much. I I think really that this is gonna sound silly because we all think of like Miss Cleo and and horoscopes and fortune cookies, but astrology really is pretty much everything. I astrology is so huge on how it influenced so much of everything. I I I don't think that can possibly be talked about enough.
Just how I mean the whole 12 and 12, you know, hours and 12 months and and and you know, and how we fit so much and in into just to fit within a zodiac, a bunch of geniuses at different times basically decide to use the same kind of measuring scale and figure it out that if you divide the the you know the the circumference of our ecliptic, you can do it into perfect 30 degrees, and you come out with 360 days in a year, even though there's 365 or 365 point like 142 or whatever it is.
Uh and you know, at some point agreed upon symbols, and at some point a certain group of symbols sort of took over and became became and you know, just to the point where you know, even things like the calendars are, I mean, we're still we're in the year 2025. No, we're not. I mean, you know, but you know, you know, we're we're in the year 57, 85. No, we're not. I mean, unless you actually believe that, you know, when you know the that beautiful phrase was uttered, that actually was the beginning.
But it's it's just I mean, I had a uh guest, actually, I'm I'm talking to him again later this this uh this weekend. We're recording, that'll be his third time, Bernie Taller. And he studied some cave paintings that are dated back to 34,500 years ago, and it's very clear that that was a zodiac. Most of it is the same zodiac as now, though some of them were different figures at the time. And it's basically, I mean, obviously it depends where you start, but it's basically the hero's journey, you know, at least 34,000 years ago.
You know, and probably by the time someone or someone's figured out how to paint it on a wall in a paint that was permanent, that was like the pyramids. That wasn't that what their first attempt wasn't Giza. Their first attempts are crumbles in the d in the dirt. So just just amazing. And and that still influences us today in in so many invisible ways. I read a book. I think the author's name is I think it was William Napier, but I know there's a famous Napier. This guy is an author. It's not the same guy.
And he did the whole book basically having to do with like the it had something to do with the the the Roanoke, you know, uh issue with a colony in Roanoke disappeared overnight. And he tied it into this whole thing about how it was over-competing Christian sects to control whether we were going to use the Juliana calendar or the Gregorian calendar. This is a very good story. It was very easy to read. I don't remember enough about it, but I mean, people still talk about the missing 300 years. No, they just they just counted it differently.
It's like nothing's missing, but people still debate about missing 300 years, and some people say that was Tartaria, that was the age of Second Atlantis. And I mean, you could use this information for, you know, if you have an audience anyway, or if you were extreme enough to find an audience for very diabolical purposes.
Yeah, I think uh the modern incarnation of coast to coast AM kind of at least a lot of that. But I don't touch that stuff with the 10-foot pole because there's a lot there. But yeah, that actually I was gonna say something, and that is completely it's amazing. And I I think that you're right, because if you look at especially at Asian countries, you will see belief in the zodiac everywhere to the point where you know it's still a trope of you're watching the morning news and they will do astrology rankings.
And oh, if you're sign of the dragon, then you're gonna be great this morning, and if you're not, then you're gonna have a horrible day. Or even more basic, like in Japan, they truly believe in blood types, where if you are blood type A, then you are extremely outgoing and personable, and if you're B, then you're essentially a beta, and you just let people roll over you all the time. It's just it's fascinating how people make these snap judgments in order to categorize people quickly and then place them in that bucket and then go about their day. I mean, my wife is Ecuadorian.
She ever every year things get moved around and little pairs of dolphins and frogs and turtle statues and paintings get moved around and tables are reoriented, all piece of fun shui. And you know, okay, it's great. We we we have a little uh Chinese New Year celebration or lunar new year celebration. Unfortunately, it's fish. I don't like fish, but that that you know that that's fine. You know, and and you know, it's a whole big thing. I mean her and her son spend the whole day, you know, cooking like a whole head-on fish and all of this stuff.
You know, my wife and my girls, they do the exact same thing for lunar new year. So I'm right there with you. Yeah, it's it it's it's all there.
And like, and like, you know, for I don't know, maybe five years, and you know, probably going to a Chinese restaurant once a week, looking at the you know, that paper, you know, uh placemat with zodiac signs that aren't mine and wondering what this is all, you know, and and barely it barely registers. You just know that it's different, it's the year of the monkey and the year, and don't even think about what it is. And at some point someone says, well, it's the lunar zodiac. Okay, well, what's that?
I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't know that if people even think about what you know what the zodiac came from, or and like basically mathematicians and people looking to you know figure out how to how to measure you know movement because that's how you measure time. I mean, and then it turned into navigation. It's just amazing. I I I've come up with a couple of like theories which are original to me, where the whether they're original to the world through me or not, I don't know.
But that like a lot of the chimera that we have, a lot of like the the creatures and the myths and even some of the stories that go with them were basically maps so that you know people could get around in different times of year, and so they told different stories so they knew which stars to follow do it. Of course, then there's clouds, which sort of throw a wrench into that one.
Um and of course, uh you know, if you believe in the paranormal and you believe that, you know, there's gotta be some explanation for cryptids, you know, I posited, well, why can't cryptids just be ghosts of extinct creatures? I mean, why why are ghosts limited to you know humans and domestic animals? Why is it only horses, dogs, cats, and humans?
I mean, you don't think those bison that were run off the cliff that they don't suffer any trauma and maybe you know hold a grudge, or you know, the the wolf who languished for seven days in in a you know in a bear trap, you know, trying to bite its arm its leg off, its both, you know, didn't didn't s didn't die with some trauma and then unfinished business. And maybe that's the dire wolf, or maybe that's the saber-toothed cat, or maybe that's the giant sloth, you know, that you know, the the gigantipithecus, which when it presents as a ghost, you know, it does sort of phase in and out.
And there there explains your Bigfoot that you think is interdimensional, you know. And well, yeah, it's just uh just fun little fun little theory to tie in ghosts and cryptids and try to make some sense of it. I mean, it's still nonsense, not in that it in that it's not exactly Thai rooted in sense, but uh you know, if you believe in the paranormal, then why not? That makes perfect sense.
Yeah, especially where I grew up. There's all these now um all of these accounts on TikTok and other social media things that uh essentially try to paint Appalachia as the birthplace of all evil, and that all there are rules that everyone follows. There's even one idiotic creator that went on and started talking about how there was a tr a dead tree that was following her around on her property. I'm just like, okay, that's completely overblown, and it's just it irritates the ever living shit out of me. But that's neither here nor there.
Uh, I got two last questions for you before I'll let you go.
Well, first, I mean, does the does the does that tree like put on a trench coat and put on glasses and a and a like a fedora so you can't recognize it?
That would at least make it more interesting, but no, that's not even what happens. Essentially, uh it's a branch that is being moved from one part of the yard to the other, and then she films it and it's like, oh look, it's following me here and here. Like, oh, it's just crazy. So, first, what would you say is your white whale? I guessed your subject that you've always wanted to have on your uh always wanted to have on your podcast and have yet to achieve that.
I have two white whales and they they both should be actually I have three, and they all two of them should be easy to achieve. The third one is hard. One, I want someone who's actually versed in international law enforcement. I'd like to get someone from Interpol or you know, FBI that was, you know, stationed in an international uh field office that was tasked with like a joint task force with like MI5 or whatever. I I am fascinated on how that works. I would like to extrapolate that to what might be one day in space, or maybe more likely in international waters.
Another one is I simply want, I'm not sure if it's a geolog uh geographer or cartographer, or maybe some combination of both. I just want to know what the difference is between like things like streams, rivers, brooks, you know, I and and what's the difference between a K and a Bay and a Gulf and a Sea? And when does a sea become an ocean? And where is this concept of seven seas? And you know, what what's the difference between a mountain and a and a hill? And and why does what looks like the same mountain range to me, why does it have four different names when it branches off here and there?
And you know, and just like which would probably be like extraordinarily boring to people, but I would like those answers and to find out if in fact there are answers or is just yet more things, you know, is every atoll a volcano or not? You know, just stuff like that. And then the real the original white whale and closest to the white whale question is. I want someone to talk to me about the octopus. I want to know everything about the octopus and why there's this whole thing about that that their DNA is so unique and different and just how smart are they really?
And could they have been seated by aliens or by a meteorite coming? I mean, whenever you say could, the answer is yes, but you know, things octopus fascinating. So those there's another one, but I could actually someone sent me an article on it, which is apparently there's five different s different animals which eventually evolved into crabs. So now I don't want to read the article. I have it, I could read it, but you know, the good.
So that would not be a white whale, but but anyone who can talk about that, you're more than welcome on to talk about so that I don't have to read the article and and further so that everyone who listens to my show from now until eternity doesn't have to read any articles.
Have you ever run across the the YouTube channel Map Men? I don't think I have. They may actually be a phenomenal set of guests if you can get them on, because they are they do some good work. It sounds like they'd be perfect, yeah.
That's exactly right. And and that's not it. There's there's no agreement even close on the amount of countries in the world, yeah.
And and they are actually like considering you know different criteria and taking things in and out, and it was fascinating. It really was. And my last question for you is if someone is brand new to your show, what's the one episode that you would point them to in order for them to understand what Garden is all about? Such a phenomenal question.
It's such a difficult question. First of all, I have over 400 episodes between the three titles that are out there. So and like in the beginning, especially when when it was just me after my partner left and went on to do other things, and I was trying to do it myself. Like there's such challenges with the audio, and you know, I was stumbling for a personality and an identity for the show. But I still have such fondness for certain shows. But what would be the there was I've had a guest, his name is Andrew Goff, he's been on a bunch of times.
He has some controversial views, but he's very well spoken. He's he's done some TV gigs. He's I think he's uh I think he has a show on Gaia right now. And he's done some really interesting shows. I think maybe though to the be-all and end-all, and it's it's a whole thesis and a history of human beings and our relationship with bees and how that fit into our mythology, religion. And I just remember that show being like, wow, I did not expect this to be interesting at all, and this is freaking fascinating. All of the golf shows are good.
I was in a show with a lawyer who I knew from the Maryland Lawyers Facebook page. She's been on a bunch of names, Jennifer Sutherland, and we did poetry and sort of it was like the poetry of metal or the poetry of anyway. She she's like into this whole thing about and she's she's we've done the we've done the whole the the fall of um Usher, you know, the Poe series on Netflix. We talked about that. She's done, I think, either Halloween or or Scary Christmas with me. So she's been she's been on much time, she's been great.
But it was like like the whole thing, she was like talking about how like you know, Iron Maiden, you know, always does a certain kind of uh arpeggio or whatever, and it's a it's a poetry device, and and just there was just fascinating stuff in there that I didn't know what I was getting into, but uh, I mean it turned out to be terrific. I thought it was terrific. But yeah, I would I would maybe go the be all and end all, also because I thought that was a really clever name for a show based on bees. I'm very proud of myself for that one. Yeah. Start with that, I guess.
That's a phenomenal answer. And I'll cut this part out, but are you in Maryland? I am. I am right next to you in Northern Virginia, actually. Are you where in northern Virginia? Are you? I'm uh in a little suburb in called Manassas Park.
Well, I mean, my law firm, the the two Northern Virginia offices, which I would argue are the home base, though the managing partner who's in Chicago would other would argue that that's the home base. But the two main offices are Leesburg and Tyson's. I'm I'm gonna be in Tyson's the end of this month. Really wanted to go to Leesburg, but they're like, well, the event's in Tyson's, so you should come down there for the day and work there for the day. I'm like that. Tyson's is so uninteresting.
You got I actually I used to live right next door across the bridge from Tyson's and Falls Church. Yeah. So I will be deigned. Yeah, well, there's just a small world.
For whatever reason, I I thought you lived much further south. I I thought that you were sort of like, you know, uh somewhere between, you know, somewhere Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama.
I grew I grew up in Tennessee, but yeah, I moved after I came back from Japan. I we settled in Northern Virginia and been here ever since.
Listen, so this is this Maryland, Northern Virginia. I I you know, I think Maryland and Virginia are pretty similar in a lot of ways. Very pleasant part of the world. I mean, I know that the taxes are high and all that, but I don't care.
And traffic's awful. But beyond that, it's a fantastic melting pot to be in. I love it. I do too. I'm very I very sad.
People are like, Do you want to go on vacation? Not really. I don't want to go to the airport. I don't want to get go through. I mean, I'm sure this place is there and more beautiful. I'm like, don't you want to see the world? I'm like, not really. I've been to Las Vegas, I've been to Epcot. That's enough.
Yeah, pretty much every year we just go back to Japan for a month and we come back, and I am more than content. I'm like, that's good enough for me.
Yeah, month is good because like it's like, yeah, it's a whole ordeal in packing to get there, but you're there for a month. So you you can settle in. Plus, I mean, you know, there's my family. So like things like you don't need to overpack because you have access to things like laundry machines.
Exactly. Well, that and um just actually the beginning of the year, we bought a house and over there, so now we have a permanent home base, which I am tickled to death about.
That's fantastic. Well, I don't know what the word is in Japanese, and I'm sure it's not bonsai, but that seems like something I say. Banzai.
Probably. Congratulations. Yeah, pretty well, it it's really what you say when you when you cheer somebody, but well, uh I'll pick it up from here. But Mr. Jeff, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you answering these questions, going through a little bit of what garden is and how you view the world and how you approach different topics. It has been absolutely fantastic. If you would like to uh tell people how they can find you and your podcast, I would thoroughly appreciate that.
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Thank you for, I mean, the the questions were, I mean, they weren't easy to answer, but they they weren't hard questions either. I mean, if anyone should answer them, it should be, it should be me. So I am still on the X, I still call it Twitter. I have two accounts there. One is at IcarusFell M D, Icarus, like the you know, the guy I flew to close to Sun Fell, F-E-L-L, because he fell, and M D Maryland, because that's where I live. There's another one that's at Dos underscore evil.
I'm warning you that is mostly wrestling nonsense or wrestling non-nonsense, because I'm very much into the business and the legal stuff that's in wrestling. That's sort of what I'm known for in that world, so to speak. But if you like wrestling or you think you might be interested in it, you can give me a follow there, too. I'm on Facebook, just under my name, Jeff Littman, Jeffrey Littman. Um, and that's fine too. If you look like a real person, I'll probably accept you. And if I don't, send me a message on Messenger and and say, I heard you on Southern Demonology.
And I think you know, I think that you know we have things to talk about. And and I'd happily accept people like that. Aside from that, you can go to and any of your major podcast platforms, including Audible, and just type in Garden of Thought. And like I said, you'll generally get two to three shows a week. If you do like wrestling, I'm pretty, I guess, done a lot of shows, but I'm not going to bore any of that. I'm pretty tied to the wrestling soup network.
In fact, all my shows can be found on the wrestling soup network, which is weird because most of them aren't wrestling, but I'm like I said, I'm pretty tied to them. I do a show with the legendary Lufisto, female wrestler. She's she's now retired but runs her promotion, and we we review the show LFG, which is sort of like WWE's reality tough enough kind of competition show. And we've had three episodes, and it's very, and it's on the regular wrestling soup big boy feed, and it's been very well received. And then I do a show on sort of an Antslayer feed called Wrestling Soup and Friendos.
Yes, friendos. And me and this guy, White Chocolate, who is neither white nor chocolate. Review a show called Evolve, which is basically WE's single A show with a lot of indie wrestlers and uh NIL, like basically college athletes and s and pro athletes who became our training to be wrestlers, and that's on Tubi. I think I think we're the only show that does LFG, and I think we're the only show that does Evolve, and that's called Dose of Chocolate. Um, so you can find those. But anyway, if you're looking for anything on me, if if it's you'll find it on X and Facebook. So there you go.
And I do things like this. I love being a guest, and I love meeting people who have podcasts because they can also be guests. And guests, I'm a big believer, just like uh the Bible, begetting and begatting. Guests beget guests.
That would be highly, highly accurate. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The absolute best part about podcasting has been the people and the network that you create and the meaningful interactions that you have while doing so. It's just been absolutely amazing. And you are definitely one of those, and I greatly appreciate it, sir.
I appreciate you thinking that because I'm tickle-pinked that I know a scholarly person of your background, education, and and and knowledge, and and and that you hold me in that regard is again, it's it's very gratifying and very validating. And I can't wait to have you back on again. And then and I love and I hope that you're still planning that panel thing. And if that can happen, I again I'm tickle-pinked to even be considered uh a part of that.
Yeah. Absolutely. And uh remind me to pay you the money I owe you for saying all the nice things about me. Yeah, I'm taking Canadian dollars now. Okay, there you go. Well, everyone, thank you very much for listening as always. Uh, all of his contact information will be in the show notes. So if you missed anything, you can find it there. And otherwise, give us a like, a follow, and tell your friends about Southern Demonology. I would really appreciate that. Go check out Garden of Thought, and uh, I know that you're gonna have a good time doing so.
Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.com, which offers links to all of our social media and episodes. Southern Demonology is solely owned, produced, and edited by myself, and the intro and outro music are composed by me as well. If you have a moment, please rate, like, and share this podcast, as it is the best way to help support my work. As always, I am JJ, and it has been a pleasure to speak to you today.