Doug Bradley

Speaker 10:00

I choose to put myself in in this prof profession and we choose to put our work in front <span data-t="5.

8">of the public. If the public likes what you did nearly forty years ago, I last played the <span data-t="12.

2">character uh twenty twenty plus years ago, but first played the character this year, forty years ago, the <span data-t="19.

7">movie was released forty years ago next year. That's something, you know? And it tells you all the <span data-t="25.

4">time, wow, you did something right.

Speaker 30:39

Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, tales, <span data-t="49.

8">and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, then sit back, relax, and welcome to <span data-t="58.

6">Seven Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more.

Speaker 41:08

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Speaker 24:23

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Wandering Road Podcast. I'm your host, Chris. <span data-t="268.

4">Co-hosting me with me today is Mr. JJ, the host of the Southern Demonology podcast. And joining <span data-t="275.

0">us today, a very special guest. Been working on this for a few months, ever since I met <span data-t="281.

0">him at Steel City Con. I'm a big fan of his films that he starred in as Pinhead. <span data-t="287.

5">Yes, you heard that correctly. And if you're watching this, the horror icon, Mr. Doug Bradley, is <span data-t="293.

7">joining us on the show today. Welcome to the show, Doug.

Speaker 14:56

Hi guys. Hi, Chris. Good to see you again. And nice to meet you, JJ.

Speaker 35:00

Hi. It is an honor to have you here. I have been I I can't tell you how <span data-t="305.

5">excited I have been for this night.

Speaker 25:07

Yes, listeners, if you've noticed Doug Bradley said, you know, talking to me again. If you like <span data-t="313.

6">football, aka as the Americans call it, soccer, he was on the Let's Get Footy podcast. Footy. <span data-t="320.

1">I'm sorry, Doug. Not footy, footy podcast. Footy. Footy.

Speaker 15:24

To talk uh you gotta gotta soften that T and get it into a Liverpool accent.

Speaker 25:29

Yeah, footy. I gotta go stay in uh Liverpool for a little bit. That that is one <span data-t="334.

0">of my goals, like to make this podcast my main source of income so I can get a <span data-t="339.

8">season ticket, stay over in Liverpool, and just go just go to the game.

Speaker 15:44

I'm not gonna say anything, Chris, because you we we said we will not mention football.

Speaker 25:49

No, no, yes, correct. Yeah, yeah. J poor JJ will be out of his death here with <span data-t="355.

4">that one. So that wouldn't be accurate. But yes, folks, we have Mr. Doug Bradley with us here <span data-t="361.

4">today. I'm very excited for this episode. It's been in all my years, well, all my three years <span data-t="368.

2">doing podcasting. If I would have told myself three years ago, hey, you're going to have a <span data-t="374.

3">podcast with someone that was friends with and acted with Chris Farley in Brandon Morgan, and you <span data-t="380.

6">would have Doug Bradley, a horror icon who played the famous pinhead character in the Hellraiser movies <span data-t="387.

7">on your podcast again. And I would have told you, you're crazy. Weirder things have happened. For <span data-t="393.

5">today, Doug, I know you've done multiple interviews, and I know a lot of them have probably <span data-t="399.

6">asked you about the pinhead character and the Hellraiser movies. We're gonna touch on that a little <span data-t="405.

6">bit, but what I'm really interested in is your thoughts on the paranormal. Before we started recording, <span data-t="412.

3">you said you've done some investigations yourself. You had you said that you're an atheist, you were <span data-t="418.

0">interested in Skinwalker Ranch and Stonent Day theory and all these other topics. So I would love <span data-t="425.

0">to dive into your perspective on the paranormal world for today's show.

Speaker 17:09

I don't remember a time when I wasn't intrigued by it. And as a kid, it was <span data-t="432.

7">particularly ghosts, which I couldn't get enough of, but which scared me silly. The idea of them <span data-t="439.

4">scared me. I grew up in in a religious family, Methodist, church every Sunday and Sunday school. <span data-t="446.

0">And and as we you know, as time time went by, I disengaged myself from that. I I <span data-t="452.

2">got as far as going to membership classes for the church, that would be probably when I was <span data-t="456.

2">about 15, and uh a fledgling Hittie. And we spent the first few weeks talking about what is <span data-t="462.

9">God and just throwing ideas about what we thought God might be around. And I was, you know, <span data-t="467.

8">getting into mystical ideas and all that kind of stuff, getting interested in in UFOs and the <span data-t="472.

9">Loch Ness Monster and mythology, and so that was all very cool. And then after a few weeks, <span data-t="478.

1">the assistant minister was young and a bit hip. He later was forced to leave the church in <span data-t="483.

4">disgrace because he was found to be having an affair with what his per married parishioners. Anyway, <span data-t="488.

7">uh he's he said, So we've we've spent these weeks talking about God and what we think God <span data-t="494.

2">might be, and I think it would be safe to say that we've reached the conclusion that that <span data-t="497.

9">we don't know. And I thought, hmm, I was expecting the big reveal. I was expecting, you know, <span data-t="504.

1">that you would pull back the curtain and and tell me. Because you, you know, you're a you're <span data-t="510.

3">a man of the cloth, you wear the collar, you're a man of God, you profess to understand <span data-t="515.

1">all this. And I'm I want you to tell me, because I don't. And his conclusion was we <span data-t="520.

6">don't know what God is, but it doesn't matter that we don't know what God is, it only <span data-t="524.

5">matters that we believe that God is. And I m my reaction to that was really? Said it? <span data-t="530.

9">Is that all is that is that all you've got? Because if you're saying you don't know what <span data-t="536.

1">God is, then you're acknowledging that you think he might not be, which seemed seemed to me <span data-t="540.

9">kind of weird. So I checked out and moved by degrees from agnosticism to atheism. But I call <span data-t="547.

5">myself a religious atheism atheist, and I know that will sound contradictory. It's fine, it's contradictory. In <span data-t="555.

4">terms of strict Christian theology, you know, the the creation, the the Genesis story and Jesus, the <span data-t="563.

5">Son of God, born of a virgin, and love and all of that, I'm emphatically an atheist. And <span data-t="569.

6">I think I lean rather towards a Lovecraftian view of the universe, that it is rather cold and <span data-t="575.

2">rather distant, and fundamentally it doesn't give a fuck about me or us. And I don't see the <span data-t="581.

1">need or the evidence for a god anywhere. Now, after all, if it if it if it hadn't <span data-t="587.

2">been for the the asteroid landing in the Yucatan Peninsula, chances are this would still be a <span data-t="594.

0">planet of dinosaurs. You know, it's only by accident that the mammals got a foothold and developed <span data-t="600.

1">to where we are now. And I think we're very anthropomorphic in our theological views. We you <span data-t="606.

2">know we we we all know the model of i if you compress the history of the earth <span data-t="610.

5">into a year, you know, the the the dinosaurs disappeared somewhere around December the tenth, and we <span data-t="617.

3">appeared about ten seconds to midnight, and that's the the sum total of human existence, and I <span data-t="623.

3">think it's very presumptuous of us to think that we're in any way special. If I were to <span data-t="629.

3">go to a purely mechanistic view of the world and us and the universe and love, life, death, <span data-t="636.

0">and the whole damn thing, like Dawkins kind of mechanistic view of it all, it seems to me <span data-t="641.

3">that it throws a lot of the baby out with the bathwater, and I'm too steeped in poetry <span data-t="646.

6">and uh literature and imagination and the life of the imagination to be able to to to step <span data-t="654.

6">away from all of that entirely, nor do I want to. But also I I give it that <span data-t="660.

2">title in a way to to want to reclaim the religious impotence impetus, the the sense of the <span data-t="666.

8">numinous, because a lot of my rejection of of religion is is rejection of the monotheistic religions, <span data-t="674.

3">specifically Christianity, Judaism, and um Islam, all the the children of of Abraham or Ibrahim, the children <span data-t="682.

3">of the book, which is only, you know, again, a few thousand years of history. And we're a <span data-t="688.

2">lot older than that, and our experience is much older than that. And so it's to go back, <span data-t="693.

8">you know, to a time in a sense where there was no distinction between the sacred and the <span data-t="699.

1">profane. Everything was sacred, everything was meaningful, everything was powerful. That's where I tie up that <span data-t="704.

9">contradiction of calling myself a religious atheist. Obviously, being an atheist, I don't I don't think I <span data-t="711.

0">believe in life after death, which is a bit of an issue when you go ghost hunting. I've <span data-t="715.

7">had plenty of strange experiences that I can't explain. But I've never seen a ghost. I get <span data-t="721.

3">bothered when people easily talk about the spirits. Everybody assumes they're talking to the spirits, the spirits <span data-t="728.

2">of of the dead, and I don't know that I have evidence that that is true. It may <span data-t="733.

2">be, it may not be. I I don't know. I think a lot of assumptions are made about <span data-t="738.

6">what's going on with experiences of the supernatural, a lot of which I think may actually be <span data-t="745.

1">very natural. But that's so that's a kind of a kind of nutshell summary, if at all makes <span data-t="751.

0">sense. No naturally follows that if I don't believe in God, I don't believe in the devil, with <span data-t="756.

0">apologies to the southern demonologist. I don't I d I don't think I believe in demons other <span data-t="763.

0">than what goes on inside our heads. But I don't know that I believe in an external reality <span data-t="769.

0">of that. No doubt you will be able to tell me of experiences that that will refute that <span data-t="773.

8">point of view, but that's that's my basic belief.

Speaker 312:57

Well, I mean it's better to profess that belief as someone who doesn't believe in Christianity as <span data-t="785.

4">opposed to a Christian who firmly says that they don't they don't believe in the devil or hell <span data-t="791.

4">or anything else, because it's a little contradictory in that front. But I I can respect that.

Speaker 113:16

Well much of much of that is man-made anyway, isn't it, JJ? I mean, you know, the <span data-t="802.

1">the the devil is barely mentioned in the Bible. I believe the the Old Testament word in the <span data-t="808.

0">Hebrew is is shaitan, which means only uh the enemy.

Speaker 313:35

Or really it means it's a legalistic term that means the chief prosecutor. Okay.

Speaker 113:40

Wow, okay.

Speaker 313:40

Yeah, and it's not the which is the chief prosecutor. So it's in the Hebrew Bible, there's <span data-t="828.

7">only one word that can be kind of known as referring to a demonic thing, and that is <span data-t="836.

6">Shair, which is like a fawn-like or goat-like entity. But other than that, there's only illusions in <span data-t="844.

2">the Hebrew Bible, and it only gets you only find like true development of that within later times.

If you don't know, I'm I'm an academic when it comes to like Second Temple Judaism and <span data-t="857.

8">angelogy and demonology from a textual perspective, not a practical perspective. Uh and I kind of delve <span data-t="865.

4">into all of that. So I I can I can go off the deep end on that front.

Speaker 114:29

So I'm not trying to So that's like a that's like a like a pan-like figure. Like <span data-t="874.

2">it is, Pan. Right. And what what I think is interesting about that is is that the the <span data-t="881.

2">the figure of Pan very much reflects nature and ref it seems to me, and reflects nature as <span data-t="887.

9">both a beneficent and a malevolent force. You know, nature holds us and feeds us and nurtures <span data-t="895.

8">us and keeps us warm and makes us happy and all of that. And it will also wipe <span data-t="900.

4">us out in a heartbeat with floods or you know, lightning or famine or or whatever, and Pan <span data-t="906.

7">seems very much to reflect those two extremes. I guess like Kali, the great the great goddess <span data-t="913.

6">figure of Hinduism, she is she is the nurturing mother and the destroyer simultaneously. Whereas Christianity particularly <span data-t="921.

7">tends to bifurcate all all the time. It it it always wants to be in a in a <span data-t="927.

7">in a white hat, black hat universe. It, you know, this is good and this is bad, and <span data-t="933.

2">these things can't be the same thing at the same time.

Speaker 315:35

Which is a fascinating development because ancient Judaism was there there was no duality. It was right <span data-t="944.

1">everything comes from God. If it's a lying spirit, it came from God. If it's a good thing, <span data-t="948.

8">it came from God. And it's only in Second Temple Judaism do you get that kind of Persian <span data-t="955.

0">Zoroastrian influence that creates this search for the devil, which takes around 300 years to complete. And <span data-t="963.

8">it's only by consensus is it actually kind of settled on later on. But we assume that whatever <span data-t="972.

2">we receive is kind of written out in the Bible and you're good to go, and that's not <span data-t="978.

6">the case whatsoever.

Speaker 116:20

No, it's a very confused and confusing document, it seems to me, especially the Old Testament. I <span data-t="986.

5">suppose to some extent, are we going there to the problem of of Job and you know, Job's <span data-t="992.

6">question? I've been I've been a good and faithful servant all my life, and why do you do <span data-t="997.

4">this to me? And the question of if God is omnipotent, then where does evil come from? <span data-t="1003.

7">But to be simplistic about it, where does childhood cancer come from? If God is omnipotent, then <span data-t="1009.

1">he must have the ability to make that make those things not happen. He must have had <span data-t="1013.

4">the ability to not let evil exist in the world. So th there are two choices. Either <span data-t="1019.

4">God is omnipotent and chose to let evil and childhood cancer and so so on and so <span data-t="1025.

0">forth exist in the world, which rather raises the question, why? If you if you had the <span data-t="1031.

2">option of not doing that, or the forces of evil are forces that God can't control, in <span data-t="1036.

6">which case he's not omnipotent.

Speaker 317:18

Well, and Job is an interesting case study as well, just beyond those questions, because that <span data-t="1044.

0">story has been it was it it it predates the Hebrew Bible by a very long time. <span data-t="1050.

8">It was an old Persian tale that was adopted into the Hebrew Bible. Okay, and then later <span data-t="1056.

3">it gets a Hollywood ending where you know God grants Job a new family and everything else, <span data-t="1064.

1">which doesn't answer any of the questions, of course, that you just raised. It's just well, he <span data-t="1068.

9">didn't get his family back, he got a new family. Is that the same? No, no, no. <span data-t="1074.

5">A few a few plagues along the way as well. Yes. It's one of the reasons why <span data-t="1079.

3">students that study Hebrew don't they're not really allowed to even touch Job from a uh from <span data-t="1086.

6">a study perspective until they have five or ten years of experience under their belt because it's <span data-t="1092.

4">so complicated.

Speaker 118:13

Really? And Carl Gustav Jung wrote an entire book on the question of Job.

Speaker 218:18

Doug, you said something that I wanted to touch on towards the beginning. You said you <span data-t="1103.

8">had quite a few interesting experiences. With regards that uh I'm assuming you would consider them eerie <span data-t="1110.

2">or paranormal. One thing I always like to say is that the reason all of us like <span data-t="1114.

5">horror and the paranormal and UFOs, ghosts, demons, whatever, that that range of topics, it just doesn't <span data-t="1121.

6">happen. There's always like I call it a gateway drug. There's always one thing that happens. And <span data-t="1127.

2">when you said you had quite a few things, strange things that happened to you, I was <span data-t="1131.

3">wondering, is that related to what got you into this type of genre of the paranormal and horror?

Or was it your relationship with Clive and his works that kind of piqued your interest <span data-t="1143.

5">as well? Or was there some a few things that happened when you were younger that were <span data-t="1147.

5">unexplainable that kind of drew you in more?

Speaker 119:10

I'm s I'm sure my bedroom walls spoke to me one night. But but no, as I <span data-t="1154.

7">say, I d I as a kid, I think it it it was that that obsession with ghosts. <span data-t="1160.

4">If if I try and draw a timeline, my gateway into horror would begin with Granada Television <span data-t="1168.

6">in the northwest of England, commercial TV station. It started a series called Appointment with Fear, and <span data-t="1175.

0">this would be again when I was a teenager that came on at 10.30, I think every <span data-t="1181.

0">Monday night, right after news at 10. And they basically ran the entire hammer back catalogue. So <span data-t="1187.

8">that was that was my kind of my entry into horror. I have my my Peter Cushing <span data-t="1195.

2">shirt on today, who is my God, a horror actor. Not for the occasion, that's just that's <span data-t="1201.

3">purely accidental. Next cap off the rank. And then I guess from there I would have, you <span data-t="1206.

5">know, discovered then the the classic universal movies and moved on to other things. And around that <span data-t="1213.

9">same time would be the time that I was cast in the school play at Quarry Bank <span data-t="1219.

8">High School in Liverpool, and you know, was told to report to rehearsals, which I did, uh <span data-t="1225.

6">which was, I've said, the day that changed my life because among my fellow cast members was <span data-t="1231.

4">this uh extraordinary fellow called Clive Barker. This is probably around 1969, 70, I think, in that <span data-t="1240.

2">academic year, I think. So that was the start of my relationship with with Clive. And so <span data-t="1247.

6">all of that process then kind of moved forward. And and and and obviously, you know, that <span data-t="1253.

7">that involved a lot of talk about the the occult and discovering cinema generally and wider fields <span data-t="1262.

3">of horror cinema, discovering Lovecraft. I had already, as a boy, I had uh I had taken <span data-t="1268.

8">taken a book off my father's bookshelves purely because the the title intrigued me, and the title <span data-t="1275.

3">was Tales of Mystery and Imagination, so I had I had already discovered Poe, which is a <span data-t="1280.

8">lifelong love that has never gone away. And and all of that fed into the theatre work <span data-t="1286.

0">that uh that Clive and I started being involved in in the early 1970s, through the 1970s, <span data-t="1292.

4">into the early eighties, and then takes us into uh in into Hellraiser. So all of that <span data-t="1299.

7">process developed. So there's never been a time that I can remember when I wasn't interested reading <span data-t="1305.

4">mythology and and reading books on, you know, a as a boy on ancient religions, particularly ancient <span data-t="1312.

4">British religions. I always think in in another life I'd like to have been an archaeologist uh <span data-t="1317.

4">specializing in in ancient British history. UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster, and you know, and and <span data-t="1323.

4">getting lots of books out of out of the library, discovering Eric von Daneken and discarding Eric <span data-t="1329.

6">von Daneken and becoming rather skeptical about the whole UFO thing myself. And although I passionately <span data-t="1336.

6">believed in the Loch Ness Monster as a boy, I don't think I do now, for purely <span data-t="1340.

7">practical reasons, I think. So all all of that is the background, and I've never lost interest <span data-t="1346.

5">in any of those subjects.

Speaker 322:28

Yeah, I I think that cryptozoology is a strong-running theme amongst most of us in this world.

Like in high school, I wanted to be a cryptozoologist more than anything in the world. <span data-t="1360.

4">I loved every story I read about Nessie. Even though I don't believe it anymore, I still <span data-t="1366.

8">want to, I'll put it that way. Yes.

Speaker 122:50

I think now it's purely it's purely because if if it's there, it can't be in it. <span data-t="1377.

6">It has to be a breeding colony. Uh and if it is, if we're going to believe it <span data-t="1381.

8">that it's something like a surviving pleseosaur or something like that, then it's a breeding colony and <span data-t="1388.

6">it's a lunged animal, mammal, which means that like whales and dolphins and porpoises, it's got to <span data-t="1395.

3">come to the surface to breathe, either through a blowhole or it's got to come to the <span data-t="1399.

1">surface and open its mouth and breathe. It can't live it can't be underwater all the time <span data-t="1404.

2">unless it's some kind of a giant fish, which doesn't mesh at all with with the descriptions <span data-t="1409.

9">of of the monster. If it is surfacing to breathe, then, you know, in the in the <span data-t="1415.

7">immensity of the Pacific Ocean, we can go and find a blue whale. It'll take a while, <span data-t="1420.

6">but we'll we'll find it because it has to come to the surface and breathe. So it's <span data-t="1424.

9">not that uncommon to see whales and in a no, it's a very, very big body of <span data-t="1430.

0">water, but nevertheless, if there's a breeding colony of creatures there, sightings are going to be very <span data-t="1436.

6">common, I would have thought, purely for that that reason of of the necessity to breathe. Also <span data-t="1442.

4">it's it's effectively dead water. Even a few feet down, the visibility is nil. Very little life <span data-t="1448.

8">in it. It's not abundant with fish and other forms of life. And again, if these creatures <span data-t="1453.

8">are there, they have to eat a lot, which means there has to be uh a substantial <span data-t="1459.

7">stock of food in the loch for it to feed on, which there simply isn't. Or it's <span data-t="1464.

5">got to repeatedly come out of the loch to feed on whatever around the loch, in which <span data-t="1470.

0">case again, sightings are going to be very familiar. So for purely w you know, with with <span data-t="1475.

8">my practical naturalists' head on, I simply think it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 324:41

I still remember watching the special where they took as a kid where they took a line <span data-t="1487.

3">of boats equipped with radar to scan across the entire surface. And that's when I knew something <span data-t="1494.

2">was wrong. Because if you have to start making up possible excuses as to why your experiment <span data-t="1501.

0">failed, and that you're just assuming that it has to exist because it does, something's probably wrong. <span data-t="1508.

2">Sure, sure. But did but did they not locate something? They I I don't even remember. The <span data-t="1515.

3">only thing I remember taking away from it is that they kept hypothesizing that there were underground <span data-t="1523.

1">tunnels that could lead to other bodies of water in which they would frequent more often and <span data-t="1529.

2">only appear in the walk for certain occasions.

Speaker 125:32

Seems highly unlikely. I don't know where those caves would lead. Exactly. That that would explain that.

But it it is a huge body of water, and it's it it it's very it's quite <span data-t="1545.

4">narrow, but it's very long, and it's very deep. You stand the Empire State Building in the <span data-t="1550.

4">middle of it several times over it. It it is very deep, but it's very cold and <span data-t="1555.

4">and it's full of peat suspension. As far as we know, there's a you know, that there <span data-t="1560.

6">isn't a lot of like weeds and greenery that this thing could be feeding off, even if <span data-t="1565.

6">it doesn't need to be feeding off fish, you know. And the surgeons photo there is that <span data-t="1573.

5">classic one, which of course turned out to be exactly what I'm doing now. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, <span data-t="1579.

3">exactly that. Very clever, very brilliantly staged photograph, but it was just an arm through a to <span data-t="1585.

4">a kid's flotation device, right? I think the strangest one is the is the one with looking <span data-t="1591.

8">across the loch, with what appears to be something moving across towards the far end of the <span data-t="1597.

7">lock where the the road goes by and there is a car going along the road at <span data-t="1602.

2">the same time. And that doesn't appear to be in any way tampered with. But it is <span data-t="1607.

6">it's such a strange body of water, and we know the way that the wakes from boats <span data-t="1613.

5">do strange things and the waves roll and seem to go on for a long time, and <span data-t="1619.

0">they come back on themselves off the shores, and particularly when you're down at water level, they <span data-t="1624.

6">appear to, you know, create moving pumps. I don't know. I don't know. I visited Loch Nest <span data-t="1631.

2">once, but never took my eyes off it.

Speaker 327:14

And if you don't mind me asking, I I'm just I I'm curious. As a fellow HP <span data-t="1639.

1">Lovecraft fan beyond the racism, is there do you have a particular uh story that you have <span data-t="1647.

6">always kind of gravitated towards?

Speaker 127:29

There's so many, are there not? I mean, I guess the call of Cthulhu, who is is <span data-t="1655.

1">the granddaddy. The outsider is a huge favorite, as is The Tomb, the Randolph Carter stories I <span data-t="1662.

2">love, and and Dagon and uh The Strange High House in the Mist and The Terrible Old <span data-t="1667.

9">Man, and you know, I it it just they just start to roll in my head. And if <span data-t="1673.

6">you if you tell me any any one of them is his best, you know, I probably <span data-t="1678.

2">wouldn't argue against you. The rats is is is brilliant, very powerful. If uh if I had <span data-t="1684.

6">to pick one, it would probably be the outsider.

Speaker 328:08

That's a good one. Color from Outer Space is phenomenal as well.

Speaker 128:12

Of course, Listeners in the Dark and yes, the Dunnage Horror.

Speaker 328:15

It's the totality of Lovecraft, I think, for me as much as it's just it's amazing that <span data-t="1701.

0">he was able to craft such an in-depth universe and make it seem so plausible with very <span data-t="1710.

3">little spoken dialogue. He he was horrible at writing dialogue. So you you don't you only find <span data-t="1716.

4">a few mentions of words that were spoken between characters, but yet it just feels so alive. <span data-t="1722.

6">It yeah, it's quite remarkable.

Speaker 128:44

And is is the master confronting you with terrible things without ever describing them? So everything <span data-t="1730.

6">is unnameable and unmentionable and unknowable. I mean, the things that really draw have always drawn me <span data-t="1737.

3">to sorry JJ, but that works, I think, powerfully with Lovecraft, because whenever he tells you that <span data-t="1743.

4">it's unknowable and unnamable, and I cannot describe the things I saw, our imaginations rush in to <span data-t="1749.

5">fill the void that is not being explained for us.

Speaker 329:15

I agree. Because I mean it's the same in most horror movies when you don't see what <span data-t="1761.

6">the creature or the monster or whatever the antagonist happens to be, it's much more scary until <span data-t="1767.

8">you finally get that big reveal, and then you're kind of let down at the end of it.

You're like, oh, okay, well, that's not as good as what I thought it was.

Speaker 129:34

Always the things we we don't understand and we we can't explain are the most powerful <span data-t="1781.

4">and um the scariest, always. Always, yes.

Speaker 329:44

And just the idea that and you know, you could encounter something that would instantly drive <span data-t="1792.

5">you mad, or the idea of non-Euclidean geometries, you know, featuring all all you know for all <span data-t="1799.

8">of the architects cycloppian architecture, yeah. I still get chills. Ghost Cones.

Speaker 230:06

Uh Eldridge horrors. Yes, Eldridge Horrors. I I I would say maybe, maybe I've never read <span data-t="1814.

9">or listened to Lovecraft, but I might be lying because I'm on volume three of Spine Chillers. <span data-t="1820.

9">There you go. So I'm pretty sure either in volume one or two, you there's probably something <span data-t="1825.

2">with Lovecraft. Well, I think the outsider is on volume one. One, it it probably is, yes. <span data-t="1830.

3">So, so yeah. I so yeah, I've listened or read Lovecraft. I'm I'm more of a and <span data-t="1836.

5">JJ knows this, I'm more of a Tolkien person. I just yeah, get so immersed in into <span data-t="1842.

2">that world. I don't know. There's something about like I like horror and all that stuff, but <span data-t="1847.

8">I'm the type of reader where when I'm reading, it like plays as a in a film <span data-t="1853.

8">in my head. I don't know, it just makes reading horror books just like that ten times <span data-t="1859.

4">more creepier for me, and then I have trouble sleeping.

Speaker 131:02

So that's the point, Chris. That's yeah again, I I discovered Lord of the Rings in my <span data-t="1868.

5">middle teens. It's a big influence on Clive. There's a direct through line. Clive had one of <span data-t="1874.

3">those teachers, you know, lots of successful creative people talk about the teacher in their lives. And <span data-t="1881.

5">for Clive, and so he's told this story publicly, so I'm not this is this is not <span data-t="1887.

1">out of school, but and it's not you know straightforward enough. His name was Norman Russell, and <span data-t="1892.

2">he taught at Quarry Bank, taught Clive, and he had set homework for Clive's form. Clive would <span data-t="1899.

0">be probably well in his very early teens at this point, maybe twelve thereabouts, to write a <span data-t="1905.

2">piece of original composition. And uh and Clive wrote his piece and turned it in. When Norman <span data-t="1911.

5">gave the homework books back, appended to it was the the the dread comment, see me, nothing <span data-t="1919.

0">else, no mark, just see me. You know, Clive's thinking, fuck, what have I done? God You <span data-t="1927.

8">know, so dragged himself up to see uh Mr. Russell, as we would have known him at <span data-t="1932.

7">uh at the end of of class. Mr. Russell said, Yes, Parker, you'll notice I didn't mark this.

And Clive said, uh Yes, sir. And he said, Do you do you know why? And he <span data-t="1944.

2">said, No, sir. He said, Because I don't think I'm qualified to mark this, because this is <span data-t="1949.

3">too good. Wow. And I would like to spend you know, the the the things you won't <span data-t="1954.

7">get away with now. I would like to spend some time with you, just you and I, <span data-t="1961.

4">after school, you know. Nothing untoward was involved, but what base basically Norman did was open open <span data-t="1969.

4">the windows of literature for Clive and give him access to a broader world. And I think <span data-t="1975.

1">for Clive, the first understanding that this was something that he could do and he had the <span data-t="1981.

1">talent to do. And the through line is that Norman at that point would was probably in <span data-t="1986.

6">his early twenties. You know, we we always think of our teachers at school as being old, <span data-t="1991.

5">but very often, particularly as we get older in high school, they're very often only a handful <span data-t="1996.

5">of years older than us, you know. Norman had been at Oxford University and was taught by Tolkien.

Wow. So Clive had that, you know, he was immediately one step removed from Tolkien.

Speaker 233:29

That's amazing. And I I will say, like, I've told this to JJ, and I don't share <span data-t="2014.

8">this as to many people other than my wife who watches me do it. Totally fascinated with Tolkien.

Probably have too many books, have all the audiobooks. I've listened to Lord of the Rings <span data-t="2024.

9">probably ad nauseum, watched the films ad nauseum, had the pleasure to meet John Reese Davies this <span data-t="2030.

6">past December. Probably along with yourself, one of the best ex celebrity experiences I've ever had. He <span data-t="2036.

9">was like a grandfather, so it was like it was like the greatest, greatest thing ever. But <span data-t="2041.

8">like just one day I just started just writing this mixture of a mixture of horror and <span data-t="2048.

2">because I'm a classic classicist, I'm a historian, so I went to school for that and all <span data-t="2052.

7">that stuff. So he's the theologian, I'm the historian. More often than not, when he goes off <span data-t="2059.

5">on a historical tirade and it's completely wrong. I'm like, no, it was actually this. He always <span data-t="2064.

9">likes to go off on Julius Caesar about Zoroastrianism, and I'm like, no, that was probably Augustus, <span data-t="2070.

8">but we'll we'll move on. I like history, I like the late Roman Republic period, Julius Caesar, <span data-t="2077.

7">Pompey, the Civil Wars. So I just started, just this idea came to mind of this like <span data-t="2083.

4">soldier on the frontier, and I just started writing, and it just started to grow into this <span data-t="2088.

7">like world that went from like a normal classical antiquity to when I get 60 pages in, <span data-t="2095.

8">there's like cannibalism, butchering, and biblical references, all these like it just came out of nowhere, <span data-t="2103.

3">but I directly attribute that to the Lord of the Rings with how like Tolkien just spends <span data-t="2109.

6">like five pages describing like what a meadow looks like or what it's what a tree looks like.

It's very like just the world building, like everything, no matter how insignificant it is, has <span data-t="2122.

2">to have some sort of lasting impression. So that's one thing. I know we went down the <span data-t="2127.

6">literature route. You know, it's it's supposed to be like a paranormal show, but you know, can't <span data-t="2131.

9">help myself. But yeah, like to your point, it it's it's amazing how Lord of the Rings <span data-t="2137.

1">and all these other authors just have such influence on everything that we almost consume today.

Speaker 135:43

So we were all uh the the whole group of us because it as you know, that <span data-t="2147.

3">kind of group that had had constellated around Clive in through the 1970s, you know. So we <span data-t="2152.

9">were we were as as well as uh Tolkien and and I read everything. After reading Lord <span data-t="2158.

5">of the Rings, I read The Hobbit, and I had Tom Bombardil and and all of that, <span data-t="2162.

5">and C. S. Lewis and and Alfred Lord Dunstiny and Ursula Le Guin. And so there was <span data-t="2169.

4">a lot of that fantasy elements, which all of which feed into into Clive's work as well.

Speaker 336:15

Absolutely. I mean uh you can see that in Nightbreed and a whole bunch of his other <span data-t="2180.

4">works, and Yeah, I mean, but there there is something special about Clive Barker's writings. I mean, <span data-t="2187.

4">they immediately suck you in so much more than other renowned horror authors that you can read. <span data-t="2195.

1">There's a visceralness to it that you it almost feels like you're punched in the stomach by, <span data-t="2200.

7">and it's phenomenally done. I'm biased, obviously.

Speaker 136:46

But I think he is the best. I enjoy Stephen King up to a point. I've never <span data-t="2212.

1">been I've never been the biggest fan of Stephen King. I always feel let down. I know <span data-t="2218.

2">that's a silly thing to say, but it's like I mean his books are big, you know, <span data-t="2222.

5">and you you cancel months of your life to read it, and it turns out to be a <span data-t="2226.

7">spider and or whatever, you know. Right. Yeah. One of the reasons why I think the movie <span data-t="2232.

0">of The Shining is much better than the novel is I remember feeling actively angry with King <span data-t="2239.

2">at the end of The Shining because you know, he's building the mystery and he's building the <span data-t="2243.

8">mystery and he's building the mystery, and then the place burns down. The end. Right. Yeah. And <span data-t="2249.

9">I I thought, no, no, that's that's how we end ghost stories that we're writing when we're <span data-t="2256.

5">a kid. You know, you have two endings. One is either and then I heard the voice <span data-t="2261.

3">saying, Wake up, it's time to go to school, and it was my mum. And then the <span data-t="2266.

2">house burned down. And, you know, and I d and I know he writes in a king <span data-t="2271.

9">writes in a in a very particular style, and obviously his career speaks for itself. But there's <span data-t="2277.

1">a there's a flatness in in his writing that I could that kind of doesn't really engage <span data-t="2282.

6">my soul as well as my head.

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Speaker 140:03

And I I I I find in Clive's writing a a poetry and a mastery of language <span data-t="2410.

6">that I think few writers in in the in the genre share. I would equate him with <span data-t="2416.

0">Edgar Allan Poe in that way with without hesitation.

Speaker 340:19

I would thoroughly agree with you on that front. I mean, King to me is his <span data-t="2425.

5">psychoanalysis and getting into character's head, that is where his strong suit is, but it kind of <span data-t="2432.

4">fizzles out beyond that. Whereas the pure mastery of the language that you see in Clive Barker's <span data-t="2440.

0">works is just yeah, I'm not trying to gush or anything. So sorry if I fanboy out <span data-t="2445.

0">a little bit.

Speaker 240:46

I told you not to. I'm a ban you.

Speaker 140:48

You won't cut me disagreeing. I had watched The Terror, the the the TV show, uh, which <span data-t="2455.

0">I thought was brilliant. I had no idea that it was based on a novel until I <span data-t="2461.

2">was recently in my half-priced bookstore, and uh I saw the terror. And I thought, that's not <span data-t="2467.

1">the same The Terror, is it? Hold it down, and of course it is. And again, it's <span data-t="2472.

2">it's a it's a big fat brick of a book at 700 pages in in paperback uh as <span data-t="2478.

8">I read it. I thought it was brilliant and brilliant writing, wonderful writing. I'm certainly going to <span data-t="2484.

6">I I bought another of his books. I I my prime sin is buying books faster than <span data-t="2490.

9">I read them. We have a have a pile waiting. But uh in many ways I thought the <span data-t="2498.

1">novel of the terror was actually better than the TV series, which as I say, I thought <span data-t="2502.

4">was was brilliant. And uh a 700-plus page novel that for me went by like a 250, <span data-t="2509.

1">300 page book.

Speaker 341:50

I know what I will be adding to my reading list right after this. Because I have <span data-t="2515.

1">yet to I haven't had the pleasure of reading his books yet, and I'm always looking for these.

He was the there's a few of them.

Speaker 242:02

Yeah, I have to add that to my list too. I'm one of those audiobook people. I'm <span data-t="2526.

6">sorry. Don't judge me, guys. I just don't have time to sit and physically read. So I <span data-t="2532.

0">just Hey, you're listening to Spine Chillers. I'm not arguing against I am on volume three. Right. <span data-t="2538.

1">So how many volumes are there?

Speaker 142:19

Thirteen.

Speaker 242:20

Perfect.

Speaker 142:21

Good. You should have bought the box set when you were at Steel City.

Speaker 242:24

Yeah, I saw that. I did see that. I was interested. I was like, what is this? <span data-t="2549.

4">And and then we got to talking about uh Liverpool and it just completely everything else takes <span data-t="2554.

9">the back seat. Absolutely. But uh continuing with uh I I'd like to continue with Clive for <span data-t="2561.

9">a second here, specifically with Hellraiser. The time you got casted by Hellraiser, what like did Clive <span data-t="2568.

7">specifically handpick you for the role of penthead, or did you like how did you get involved <span data-t="2574.

9">into that? I know you're best friends with Clive, so I'm assuming I I don't want to <span data-t="2578.

8">assume, but I figured I'd ask.

Speaker 143:01

No, sure. Well I've uh I've I've talked about starting out at the the with the the <span data-t="2585.

4">school player at high school in in Liverpool, late 60s, early 70s, after school, university. We started <span data-t="2591.

9">doing theater, own experimental, independent theater. I'm very much the driving force in that, and obviously <span data-t="2599.

2">the principal writer, though at some point in the middle of the 1970s we became the Huntermine Theater.

We were a mind troupe for a few years, and then we became the dog company, and <span data-t="2610.

6">the words came back. So through the 1970s, that's what I was doing. I was acting. I <span data-t="2617.

0">think there was a point at the end of the decade, going into the the beginning of <span data-t="2622.

7">the 80s, we were at the Edinburgh Festival, a French festival, with a play called The History <span data-t="2628.

2">of the Devil, which is published now, written by Clive. I think for for me it's it's <span data-t="2633.

9">my favorite of his plays, but all all all the stuff that we were doing as a <span data-t="2638.

4">company is. Is is published now and they've been independently performed here here in America as well <span data-t="2646.

6">now. And I was playing the devil. It was a big part. We were at the Edinburgh Festival.

We were being successful, which isn't an easy thing to do if anyone who knows is <span data-t="2656.

4">familiar with the Edinburgh Festival. There's an awful lot going on, and you know, everybody's competing <span data-t="2662.

1">for audience, and we were we were pretty much playing to Full Houses every night, doing very well.

There was a point in there somewhere where I you know where you have those kind <span data-t="2671.

8">of almost casual realizations that that affect the rest of your life, that I kind of thought, <span data-t="2677.

7">I suppose this is what I'm going to be doing. And I think that was because I <span data-t="2681.

7">was realizing that this was going to come to an end. This wasn't going to go on forever.

And I knew that when that happened, I've would explode as a writer or a painter, <span data-t="2693.

0">an illustrator, whatever, director, whatever he wanted to do, or all of these things that was never <span data-t="2698.

8">in doubt. And the question for me in some ways was, so what am I going to do? <span data-t="2702.

3">Well, the only thing I feel I do well is acting. I know it it rewards me <span data-t="2708.

1">hugely, not at that point financially at all, you know, hugely rewarding in other ways. And I <span data-t="2714.

8">I think I was arrogant enough to feel, well, I think I think I can do this as <span data-t="2719.

2">well as most, better than some, and certainly not as well as quite a lot. I think <span data-t="2724.

4">I'm okay at this, and and I think it's what I'm going to do. So round about <span data-t="2728.

3">1982, the the Dobb Company came to its natural end. Clive was already giving me handwritten manuscripts <span data-t="2735.

9">of stories and saying, I'm trying to write some short horror fiction to see if I can <span data-t="2740.

8">make some money. Would you have a read? Let me know what you think. And a lot <span data-t="2744.

2">of those stories that he was showing me then were stories that that wound up in the <span data-t="2748.

8">books of blood. So that was all happening for Clive. I got my equity card and became <span data-t="2755.

0">a professional actor. And I was working in the theater, a couple of bits of television, but <span data-t="2760.

2">principally in rapidry theatre around England. So the dog company broke up in 1982, so that's what <span data-t="2766.

6">I'm doing in the next few years. And Clive's writing career has exploded in the meantime, which <span data-t="2773.

4">was wonderful to see, uh, and still feel a part of, in a way. Towards the end <span data-t="2779.

8">of 1985, in the middle of a conversation about other things, he said, By the way, I'm <span data-t="2786.

4">trying to put together an independent, low budget horror British horror movie. And I think there's a <span data-t="2792.

0">part in there for you. And I said, Okay, cool. The conversation moved on. That was Hellraiser <span data-t="2798.

8">and Pinhead entering my life w without my being aware of it. As far as the casting <span data-t="2803.

7">goes, I mean, Clive asked me to do it, and and I wouldn't have needed anything else <span data-t="2808.

5">at that point. I wouldn't have needed a script or an anything or a contract to, you know.

You want me to do something? Then the answer's yes. You know, it's not a conversation <span data-t="2816.

6">I've ever had with him, but I assume he saw me as playing Pinhead. Uh that would <span data-t="2822.

5">be a question for for him. But my my memory is that through through 1986 there was <span data-t="2829.

0">lots of conversations about the character, and I would have read The Hellbound Heart, I think in <span data-t="2834.

2">manuscript form, before it it was published. And Clyde was showing me his sketches of Pinhead, not <span data-t="2842.

9">called Pinhead then, not at all called Pinhead, just this unnamed creature. So as I say, that <span data-t="2849.

1">was that was during 1986, and by the fall of 1986, we're at Cricklewood Production Village making <span data-t="2855.

4">the movie, so things moved really quite fast from that first conversation to doing it.

Speaker 247:43

One final pinhead question, because I know I I don't want to just linger on on pinhead. <span data-t="2868.

2">I do have a couple of other things I'd like to ask you. You're famously associated with Pinhead.

You ever get tired of the character? It's like, hey Pinhead, you know, like you go <span data-t="2878.

0">to these cons and stuff, and it's like sometimes I gotta put on the costume. You ever <span data-t="2882.

8">like, I wish I could. Well, I don't.

Speaker 148:04

I've done it once I did it once. It's too complicated. It's a very difficult costume to <span data-t="2889.

9">make work without the brilliance of Jane Wild Goose who created working with Clive, designed and built <span data-t="2897.

4">the magnificent costumes that I that that that I had in the in the first two films. <span data-t="2904.

0">Well, y you know, i if you go to a convention and you sign on the dotted <span data-t="2907.

7">line, that's what you're there for. There's no point in me trying to run away from it. <span data-t="2911.

8">I embrace it, I'm proud of it. I don't mind that it has diff defined my career. <span data-t="2917.

8">It's been more beneficial to me than anything else, I would say. And I'm in a very <span data-t="2923.

1">fortunate position because in a very unforgiving profession, I am I am 71, 72 is beckoning, and <span data-t="2930.

6">I'm still being offered work. And I be and and and that is entirely because of Pinhead. <span data-t="2936.

2">And so to be at to be at my age in in this profession and be in that <span data-t="2941.

0">situation, I I'm very fortunate and touch wood at the moment, you know, still still body and <span data-t="2947.

8">mind is capable of doing it, which which is not the case for for all actors. The <span data-t="2952.

8">desire never goes away. But uh as time ticks by, you know, for some people it becomes <span data-t="2958.

6">physically challenging and the lines become a monster. Right. Remembering the lines. I don't get stopped <span data-t="2967.

7">very often. I think people recognize me more often than I'm aware, because not everybody who recognizes <span data-t="2974.

5">me is going to come up and talk to me. So you have to be on your best <span data-t="2977.

8">behaviour. And, you know, I'd be lying if I if if I said that there aren't times <span data-t="2983.

3">when when that happens, you know, and you're in the middle of something else, or you're thinking <span data-t="2987.

8">about something else, or you've, you know, your plane's just been delayed again, or you know, or <span data-t="2993.

8">something's going on, and somebody wants to come over and say, Mr. Bradley, Mr. Bradley, you know, <span data-t="2999.

1">you think oh, for fuck's sake, not now. But you know, I I choose to put myself <span data-t="3004.

3">in in this prof profession, and we choose to put our work in front of the public. <span data-t="3009.

4">If the public likes what you did nearly 40 years ago, I blast played the character uh <span data-t="3016.

6">twenty twenty plus years ago, but first played the character this year, 40 years ago, the movie <span data-t="3022.

9">was released 40 years ago next year. That's something, you know. And it tells you all the <span data-t="3028.

4">time, wow, you did something right, you know. And I'm always aware that I had that I <span data-t="3033.

4">have that extraordinary makeup, extraordinary costume, and five's extraordinary words in my mouth. But I, you <span data-t="3041.

0">know, I'm I'm I'm not falsely modest. I I own the performance and I'm I'm critical of <span data-t="3048.

7">it, but I'm you know I'm I'm largely proud of it. And and we collectively, we made <span data-t="3054.

2">an indelible mark. And I don't think any of us had any idea at the time that <span data-t="3059.

5">we were doing it, but we did, and it is an indelible mark in in in horror <span data-t="3064.

9">films, in horror cinema, and in cinema generally. So as someone who you know, as I say, <span data-t="3070.

2">was worshipping at at the feet of uh Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee and Boris Karloff as <span data-t="3075.

4">a teenager discovering horror, to realize that you have made the same kind of indelible mark is <span data-t="3083.

2">is something uh you know, it's it's quite humbling. And the fans are not a problem. Some <span data-t="3088.

6">of them are, but very, very few. A vanishingly small percentage, without any question. The overwhelming <span data-t="3096.

9">majority are wonderful, and it's a magnificent fan base to have. It is extraordinarily supportive and knowledgeable.

They know more about my career than I do. I mean, I've had people ask me <span data-t="3108.

8">questions about things that I've done. My mind goes blank, and I've actually swore blind that I <span data-t="3114.

4">nope, not me. No, it was no nope, not me. Well wait a minute, wait a minute. <span data-t="3120.

3">I think I mean I do remember that. No, I did we talked of Stephen King and I <span data-t="3125.

0">uh uh I did the adaptation of uh Salem's Lot for the BBC, uh BBC Radio 4. Oh <span data-t="3132.

6">wow. Played Barlow the vampire, and uh and I assumed that was, you know, gone. The BBC, <span data-t="3140.

2">you know, notoriously, as any Doctor Who fan will tell you, the BBC notoriously bad at not <span data-t="3146.

2">saving stuff. And somebody somebody came to my table at a convention and said, I I really <span data-t="3152.

4">enjoyed you in Salem's lot. I thought you were great. Of course, my mind is completely splitting, <span data-t="3157.

7">and I'm going to the movie or the television series, and I I'm actually saying to him, <span data-t="3163.

0">Well, I I think you're confusing me with somebody else. I wasn't in Salem's lot. And he <span data-t="3167.

9">said, Yes, you were. I I heard it on YouTube. And I said, What do you mean <span data-t="3172.

0">you heard the BBC? He and he said, For the BBC. And I said, Oh my God, yes. <span data-t="3177.

1">Yes. Wow. He said, I thought it was wonderful. And it's again, it's a it's it's a <span data-t="3181.

8">reflection of of the world we live in now, you know. Nothing goes away. There are things <span data-t="3187.

0">that you might wish would go away, but nothing does. And I never expected that that anybody <span data-t="3194.

7">would ever mention that to me. Yeah.

Speaker 253:17

Yeah. No, I I I know what you mean. Speaking of fans, it's really weird for me. <span data-t="3203.

4">I'm just a minor, I'm a nobody in the creator space, to be honest with you. Just <span data-t="3208.

2">been doing this for three years. I have thousand followers on Instagram or something, and then every <span data-t="3213.

4">now and then I'll get an instant message on Instagram like, oh my God, I'm such a <span data-t="3217.

0">big fan of yours. I'm like, why? I just I'm not special.

Speaker 153:41

No, well, I and and nor am I, but that's not the point, is it? I mean, <span data-t="3226.

0">you you you put what you put what you do out there, yeah, and you either do <span data-t="3231.

4">what you do well or you don't. And if you if you do and what you're doing is <span data-t="3235.

7">interesting, people will find you. And if if people listen to one episode of your show and <span data-t="3241.

2">they like what they hear, they'll come back for more.

Speaker 354:03

That that is true. That's I've been doing Southern Demonology for nine years now, and I <span data-t="3250.

1">have uh a voice for r radio uh what a face for radio and a voice for newspaper.

And people still wind up listening to me for some god-awful reason.

Speaker 154:20

So I think it's authenticity. If you are, you know, if you're authentically yourself, you know, <span data-t="3265.

4">particularly a medium like podcasting, ruthlessly exposes that if you're if you're not just naturally being <span data-t="3272.

1">yourself, if you're not a good communicator, i i if you don't have interesting stories to tell, <span data-t="3276.

9">if you don't really know your subject, you will be found out pretty damn quick, you know? Amen.

Absolutely. And people people vote with their feet because God knows it's a crowded marketplace.

Speaker 254:48

Like I've had like emails and stuff with other like podcasters and stuff, probably the same <span data-t="3292.

2">for you, JJ. But correct me if I'm wrong. Or like we say in the corporate world, <span data-t="3296.

7">unfortunately, him and I both work in corporate. Keep me honest here, JJ. That we've had our <span data-t="3301.

8">some of like our our listeners tell us to go to you should go to like a <span data-t="3305.

4">paracon or something like that and get a table. And I'm always skeptical. I'm like, what if <span data-t="3310.

2">I get a table and nobody comes and it's like, why am I here?

Speaker 155:13

Like, you know, I waste my time, but uh well, but you'll also you'll also meet other <span data-t="3318.

6">people interested in in you know, your peers and colleagues and fellow podcasters and fellow paranormal <span data-t="3325.

9">investigators and so forth. So it's a great networking opportunity as well. But if you if you <span data-t="3331.

4">go to those places, you'll probably be surprised. People will come to you and say, Oh, I <span data-t="3336.

3">listen to your show all the time, and you'll think, What?

Speaker 255:39

Like, why? That's my first inclination. Like, we have this one listener, she knows who she <span data-t="3345.

0">is, she listens, she she like runs a detailing shop and she like literally has messaged us <span data-t="3351.

3">saying, Yeah, I listen to your show on repeat. Like, and she'll comment on our episodes and stuff.

I'm like, that's it's really humbling. I'm like, okay, I'm it's it feels nice when someone <span data-t="3360.

3">acknowledges you know the work that you put into this. And it tells you that you're doing <span data-t="3364.

3">something right. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. But Doug, I wanted to ask you, speaking of like what <span data-t="3369.

8">you said, things that won't disappear. What are your thoughts on some people call them ghosts, some <span data-t="3376.

0">people call them spirits? Like, what do you personally believe is going on there? Because me, I <span data-t="3381.

9">grew up in my teen year, like from age nine to about 17, a very active paranormal home.

So did JJ when he was younger. So that that's yeah, that's kind of how like all <span data-t="3393.

7">of this got started. It's it's like our podcast got started, like while we went through some <span data-t="3399.

5">very traumatizing stuff, me personally, along with my family. Yes. But what age were you? It was <span data-t="3407.

0">so I lived in the Bronx, grew up in the Bronx, New York, from was born in 90, <span data-t="3412.

4">lived there until 98, late 98. We moved to Queens, New York, and we moved into a <span data-t="3418.

2">duplex home. Aunt and uncle and cousin lived downstairs, and we lived upstairs. And when we moved <span data-t="3423.

8">into the home, like right off the bat from day one, weird things started happening. Like electronics <span data-t="3429.

9">turning themselves on and off. You would hear like weird footsteps in the attic, and I'm talking <span data-t="3435.

3">like just heavy boots walking back and forth. Unexplained. I wanted to, but my parents, like, they <span data-t="3442.

8">drained so much money into like that investment. Sure. And dealing with two young kids at the <span data-t="3447.

8">time, they're like, Oh, don't worry about it. It's just the wind, the gene, the right. Yeah, <span data-t="3454.

0">we had squirrels or something, pigeons and squirrels. I'm like, okay, since we're in New York, the <span data-t="3458.

6">pigeons had Timberland boots on.

Speaker 157:40

But the New York pigeons, the one you don't know, they're there.

Speaker 257:44

Yeah, right. Absolutely. But when you start hearing like knock, you're you're by yourself and you <span data-t="3470.

4">start hearing distinct, like on your door, and you hear voices call your name that mimic your <span data-t="3476.

7">mother's voice. Calling your name. Calling out my name. Whispering. My mother's voice. No, like like how <span data-t="3482.

5">we're having a conversation right now. There was this one time I was finishing up high school. <span data-t="3487.

4">I got home, went to my room. It was like 11 in the morning, because uh our <span data-t="3491.

6">schedules at the time, when you were upperclassmen, you got out earlier. I'm in my room, I'm <span data-t="3496.

2">sitting there, I'm playing my Xbox, and then I hear my mom's voice.

Speaker 158:20

Chris. Did the voice sound as though it was in the room with you or somewhere else <span data-t="3504.

6">in the house calling you? Somewhere else in the home calling me.

Speaker 258:27

Okay. Like in the living room, dining room type of area. So the way it was set <span data-t="3512.

0">up, like we call it apartments, you guys call it flats. The way the flat was set <span data-t="3516.

2">up, it was the two bedrooms, the kitchen, the dining room, and the extended living room. In <span data-t="3522.

5">between, separating the kitchen and the dining room was a very heavy wooden door that we always <span data-t="3527.

7">left open, and my mom would shut the door if she was cooking some sort of Caribbean <span data-t="3532.

0">food that would just permeate throughout the house. So that door was open. I heard her voice <span data-t="3537.

9">come from like the living room area. I heard it twice. Chris ignored it once. Chris ignored <span data-t="3544.

3">it again. I pull on my cell phone and I call her. So my mom was a nanny <span data-t="3549.

4">in Manhattan, and she picks up the phone. And Doug, all I hear in the background is <span data-t="3553.

4">the hustle and bustle of Manhattan, the wind, the cars, and she's like, Hey, are you okay? <span data-t="3558.

5">What's going on? I'm like, no, I'm not okay. I hear you calling me. I just wanted <span data-t="3564.

2">to make sure that you were not here. She's like, no, I'm not here. I'm not gonna <span data-t="3569.

4">be home till like 2:30, 3 o'clock. You know this. So I told her what was going on.

And my mom is from the Dominican Republic. And if you know with the the Caribbean <span data-t="3579.

2">islands, they're very spiritual when it comes to the paranormal. They're like Catholic plus whatever cultural <span data-t="3586.

5">belief like is infused into that that region.

Speaker 159:50

So she was very much folk stuff correct. And and older religious beliefs mixed in with <span data-t="3597.

0">with with Christianity, Catholicism, right?

Speaker 21:00:00

Yes. So to her, when she hears that, she says, do not respond to it because that's <span data-t="3607.

4">the dead calling out to you. I'm like, okay, that's fine. So thanks, mom. Thanks, mom. She's <span data-t="3613.

4">like, just I'm gonna be home soon. I'll be home in about three hours. You'll be okay. <span data-t="3617.

9">Don't answer it. So see, I would have been out of that house immediately.

Speaker 11:00:22

To the park, to a movie, just walking around somewhere. I would have been out of that <span data-t="3627.

4">house. But anyway, go on.

Speaker 21:00:29

See, I was stubborn. I enjoyed like my solitude. So it's like I'm gonna read, I'm gonna <span data-t="3634.

6">play my game, I'm gonna do what I want to do, like the hell with you. So the <span data-t="3638.

2">voice calls out in my mom's voice about two more times. And the final time, Doug, remember <span data-t="3644.

2">I told you about that door. We always let my cat scared the shit out of me. <span data-t="3648.

8">God damn it, Diesel. So that door, that heavy wooden door, no windows are open, nothing like that.

There is no draft, there's nothing. There's just this boom, it slams on its own. I'm <span data-t="3660.

2">like thinking to myself, I'm 17. I'm like, fuck this. I close my bedroom door, I pull <span data-t="3666.

0">my desk a little bit, so like it blocks the door open inwards, so it blocks it. <span data-t="3671.

0">And I'm just sitting on my bed, I have my game on pause. I'm just sitting there, <span data-t="3675.

0">just waiting for somebody to come home. And that night, I told my parents, I never swore <span data-t="3680.

1">at my parents, I was like, I don't want to fucking live here and I am done. <span data-t="3684.

0">They were already looking for a home, but then they like put it into warp speed because <span data-t="3688.

7">you know, when the kids tell you, like, look, I can't be here anymore.

Speaker 11:01:32

Were they experiencing the same things?

Speaker 21:01:35

Yes. My parents, it was not until I started my show and publicly talking about this <span data-t="3701.

6">that other members of my family finally had the courage to speak up on it. Me and <span data-t="3706.

2">my sister could meet.

Speaker 11:01:47

Yeah. Right. You you have one sister.

Speaker 21:01:49

Yeah. But as we got older and we started talking about it, because you talk about it <span data-t="3713.

8">in a very joking manner, but at the time it's very it's terrifying. But I'm like 15, <span data-t="3719.

8">16 years old. I what can I do? I just gotta find ways to cope and just go <span data-t="3725.

4">about my day. But like when you see someone physically get shoved by something that is not <span data-t="3732.

6">there that you can't see, and they get lifted off the ground and shoved like six feet <span data-t="3739.

2">in the opposite direction into like a wall or door. You're like, okay, I don't understand what's <span data-t="3745.

6">going on here, but there's something not right. Because wind does not do that to people.

Speaker 11:02:29

And that was that your sister you observed that happening too?

Speaker 21:02:33

That was my aunt. So it was my aunt who was in her 50s at the time. <span data-t="3757.

4">So my aunt had stayed with us.

Speaker 11:02:43

Yes, yes, that's extreme. Highly. Yeah. And when you when you moved, it stopped. It stopped. <span data-t="3769.

0">Never had a problem. A duplex. So not not a particularly old house. Were you were you <span data-t="3773.

7">able to find any history of the house? Did you explore any of any of that?

Speaker 21:02:59

So my aunt, who like when I like I said, when I started the show, my aunt, <span data-t="3785.

2">who's very supportive of me sharing these stories, she came out and said to me that, hey, <span data-t="3790.

9">when we moved into that home, the neighbors across the street, they were two older German women. <span data-t="3796.

6">They had like German accents. And you know, they introduced her themselves to my aunt and my <span data-t="3802.

5">parents and everything. And they told her specifically, you need to get that house cleansed before you <span data-t="3808.

5">move in and after you move in. Because the people that were there were involved in some <span data-t="3815.

2">shady practices. We don't know if it was a cult or something of that sort. They made <span data-t="3820.

5">the claim that some some teenage girl back in the day was abused there or killed there <span data-t="3828.

2">or something. But I could never when I looked into it, I could never really corroborate that story.

Speaker 11:03:53

So Is that something that your parents did? I mean, I know I know uh when my <span data-t="3840.

3">uh my my first wife and I, we we had kind of a we lived in the upper <span data-t="3846.

1">part of a house in in London. There was a the the landlady lived on the ground <span data-t="3851.

9">floor and I did some work in in the house for her. She she was Catholic, and <span data-t="3857.

2">I discovered when I lifted the window frames that each each window frame had a small crucifix <span data-t="3863.

4">placed so that the window shut on it. Oh wow.

Speaker 11:04:27

Which is which was quite a common thing to do. And again, that's to, you know, to <span data-t="3871.

5">stop the the evil things uh coming through the windows and getting into into your house. But <span data-t="3878.

2">uh but if it's quite w so my my point was that I think it's quite common. It <span data-t="3883.

7">was, I think, more so than now, but particularly for Catholics to want to cleanse a house, <span data-t="3889.

7">or at least have a priest come in to bless bless this house before moving in. Did <span data-t="3895.

5">they did they take up? So did not the German ladies on their advice.

Speaker 21:05:02

So the w my family makeup is like I I call it a Crayola box, a cultural <span data-t="3906.

8">Crayola box. So my aunt and uncle were Muslim. My dad was a Hindu, and my mom <span data-t="3912.

8">Catholic, but my dad eventually converted to Catholicism because of what he experienced in that home, <span data-t="3919.

5">which I found intriguing. We so what he would try to do, he would do like his <span data-t="3925.

5">Hindu prayers. They would have these prayers like once a year, they call it a puja, to <span data-t="3929.

8">like one of their patron deities, and he would do that, and it would things would taper <span data-t="3935.

6">off for maybe like a week or so, and then it would come back with a vengeance, <span data-t="3939.

4">more activity, more noise, everything of that sort. And it wasn't until like my mom started saging <span data-t="3947.

7">and and doing her like Catholic type of cleansings, in which like but that again is more <span data-t="3953.

4">of a folk kind of that's so sage, a bundle of sage. Yeah, I would would you <span data-t="3960.

0">say so, JJ? That's not really a Catholic thing.

Speaker 31:06:02

Sage not a thing. No. No, Catholicism has two different types of rights for this. One <span data-t="3969.

4">is just a generalized blessing, or you could have a exorcism of place or locale, which is <span data-t="3976.

6">much more free to allow an individual priest to decide to perform or not. But still it's <span data-t="3983.

8">a little un it's a little uncommon though.

Speaker 11:06:26

Yeah. No, you you're a teenager, Chris, so come on.

Speaker 21:06:29

At the time? You did the Ouija board, right? No, I didn't. I didn't. I never never <span data-t="3995.

9">never did. I am deathly afraid of them. Right.

Speaker 31:06:47

Thank you for listening to Seven Demonology. Find us online at sevendemonology.com, where you can find <span data-t="4015.

8">all of our social links, including YouTube, TikTok, and Patreon. In addition to listen to episodes and <span data-t="4024.

8">read their transcripts. Also, if you have a moment, please rate this podcast and share it with <span data-t="4032.

0">friends, as nothing can help us grow more.

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