Demons - Can you smell the infestation?

Hey, and I'm your host, Steve Rowan, and welcome to Spirits and More Radio. It has been a very long time since I've uh hosted a show. Uh we did our last show was actually kind of unique because it was uh basically just uh someone telling their story, so there wasn't a lot of uh questions and things like that, like our typical show format. But uh we've done a lot of shows. I believe this is show 23, and uh I've been wanting to do a show about demons for a really long time.

It just kind of fits right in with everything that uh that we've been doing on this show, and it's the one thing that we haven't really touched on, uh, sort of on the spookier evil side of things. Uh, I do have some ideas for a show about uh like angels and uh and also people who uh nearly escape death and and maybe see something. So those are some show ideas coming up in the future. But uh demons are are one of those things, uh, you know, as we talk about it's getting close to Halloween. Believe it or not, it's September.

And uh, you know, Halloween is uh up on the horizon, and demons are a big part of that in horror movies.

Uh, I think the you know, obviously ingrained in society's mind is the exorcist, and uh, and we'll kind of talk about that and how that aspect of demons kind of plays into everything because uh, you know, there's lots of different references in history to demons, uh, starting all the way back uh with the Greek society and uh mythology and things like that, where demons weren't really evil, they were just uh a spirit that didn't have a place, and uh, and so uh eventually it kind of morphed into evil and and then pagan gods and things like that.

So I've got my list of demons up here, then we'll probably check them out at some point during the show. But I wanted to do this show with someone who uh who's in kind of like interested in the same thing, and uh uh I'm a fan of podcasts, and so what I do is uh I I actually go when I go to sleep at night, I pick a podcast and I put it on, and it just runs all the shows in the night as I sleep. So uh I'm sure I'm getting some subliminal uh programming from some of these shows.

But one of the shows that I like a lot uh and has to do with this topic is uh Southern Demonology, and that show is done by JJ, and uh JJ, you're here with us. Welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really glad you could uh could be on the show and we could talk about this. Uh, I know that in your show you do share some experiences that sort of uh inspired you to do a podcast. Is that right?

It is. Um, although I wouldn't say so there, I think there's a a big difference in types of demonology. Um I take it from a historical perspective. Um so I'm I'm not a modern practitioner of anything. Uh I really have no experience with that besides keeping up with the latest tales. Uh, but really I've always taken things from a uh a biblical uh perspective and really kind of analyzed that. Um and then the show also mix in some other you know mythos as well.

But yeah, and you've uh now you've done what about there were seven episodes, and you just told me you released another one yesterday, is that right?

I did, yep. So we've uh I took a little bit of a a break um because of work um and a couple of other issues, but yep, everything's fully back online and uh starting to go strong again.

Yeah, that's great. I mean, I'm kind of it's kind of the same way, you know. I I told you uh before the show that I moved and I had to pull all my stuff out. And uh, if there's an electronics demon out there that doesn't like electronics, it got my laptop today because it's not doing anything it used to do.

And uh I understand all too is a problem.

I'm looking at it right now and I'm thinking to myself, you know, you guys uh listening to this didn't hear anything different, but the way that this all works and all the equipment that's involved, uh, you know, it can be set up different ways. And today it's like a totally different way. I've been working on this, trying to figure this thing out for a while. But uh anyway, back to your show. So you've done several different things. I know you were inspired to do the show by something that happened to you, I believe, in Japan. Is that right?

That's right. Yeah, I wouldn't say that was demonic. It was probably if it was anything, it was probably more of a a spirit. But uh yeah, it was very early in the morning, probably 5 30 or 6 a.m. uh uh Japan time, and I had just fallen asleep and uh suddenly had a dream where I I had this so the room itself was extremely small, it was maybe four hundred square foot, which by that standard was actually pretty big. Uh, but I had a gigantic balcony and I dreamed that there was something trying to get in. And it spoke in a voice that was not something that you could hear, but it was a pressure.

It was some psychic pressure, some type of pressure. It's an experience I have never had before. And I don't know how a dream could have conjured that in such a realistic and frightening way. Um, but it kept saying the word haidu. And it just the intensity kept getting up to the point where it was causing physical pain. And then I woke up to a my mobile device um uh having an earthquake alarm uh spring up, and it was a very small one.

But uh so I'm very lower intermediate in Japanese, even though I lived there for a year and a half or so, uh, but went to go look up this word because I wasn't quite sure uh what it was, and it means to enter. So let me in, let me in is what it was saying. And I knew just knew within the foundations of my bones that if that ever happened, I would not be living to tell you this.

So it was like a pressure, it wasn't really sound, but it was almost like um just pressure on your head? Is that what you're saying?

Exactly. It was almost as if um this command was being physically implanted into my brain. It's the best way I can describe it. Um yeah, it it it was it was by and far the most unique and horrifying experience I think I've ever had.

Now, do you when it was happening to you, you said it was scary. So there was something about it that felt evil or not right.

Oh, I it everything about it was so alien, and I knew that it was I mean, it it meant me f uh physical and spiritual harm. Um there's and so in Japanese culture first uh Yudei, which are ghosts, are very well accepted. I mean, almost everyone believes that no in all of these uh types of concepts. And I happen to live right next to a graveyard, um, which was in the middle of this of a Saksa, which is where I was located at. And uh there's a custom where if you walk by a graveyard, then you are to have purified salt in your room because things will latch onto you and follow you back.

And I had just made a trip that night out to the convenience store to grab something, walked by the graveyard like I normally do, and I don't know if something just latched on to me or what it may have been, but um I I definitely kept purified salt in my room after that.

Wow, that's interesting. Uh you know, I had the opportunity to travel to Japan and uh I stayed in Osaka, Japan, in a friend's house, and they have uh one of the rooms that I stayed in, they had a little uh altar like a shrine set up where they would pray, and I guess it was for their grandmother. And so, as uh, you know, just before, you know, they were checking on me, you know, to see that if I needed anything or whatnot, uh, my friend's brother said, you know, have fun with my grandma or something like that.

Something along the lines of maybe you'll see my grandma tonight, you know, because that was her room and they had the little shrine set up there.

Oh, there's uh yeah, there's a lot of stories about that in uh Japanese culture. In fact, uh on Amazon Prime Videos, uh, there's a specific channel called J Edge, and they have a lot of these spoken tale kind of stories that are translated into English, and there's quite a few of those in which uh a person would hear a sound from a room that was just recently vacated by a deceased family member, and they would come and give signs that they were actually there, so it's all really, really interesting.

Yeah. I always wonder about that, you know, other cultures and other places if they put any weight into, you know, ghosts in the afterlife and things like that. But um, what we're talking about today is specifically demons. Now you started a show, you know, southern demonology. Why did you pick demonology?

Um, so I actually have a master's degree in Second Temple Judaism and the Pseudopigrapha, which are the collection of religious writings written in between um the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament. Um, it's a phenomenal collection of works. Uh it is so interesting. You have to study a very broad array of languages to be able to get to the nitty-gritty of a lot of these books and uh got the chance to do that. But um, I really focused all of my time in school uh looking at angelology and demonology because those were the most fascinating topics to me.

Um so and uh whenever someone would ask me, What in the world did you study? And I would get a little bit into it, uh, they seemed to be really fascinated by the concepts um that I was able to go through. And eventually someone just said, Hey, why in the world don't you start a podcast about this? And I hate the sound of my own voice. I'm not one that tries to go out and toot my own horn. Uh so I was really against the concept in the beginning, but the more I thought about it, the more the idea appealed to me until finally I broke down and did it.

I see. Yeah, and you know, it's a lot of work. A lot of people don't realize, uh, you know, just to do a show, if you want to somewhat know what you're talking about, you know, you have to uh research every topic. Uh yours is a little more specific to demonology, but you probably moved into other things as well. Um, you know, as you sort of try and broaden, you know, the content of the show. But uh, you know, uh demons, I mean, coming from my perspective, I mean, you know, demons are something that you see in horror movies. Uh, you know, I don't know anyone who's ever been possessed.

I don't know if demons are real in that sense, you know. There's probably people who, you know, believe in demons and what's been written about them, and then there's probably lots of people who just assume that's like ghosts or anything else and they don't exist. Uh, you know, so there's people listening to this all across the gamut. Uh, so I guess that there's there's sort of like three buckets, you know, of of demons.

There's the demons in your head, you know, that people sort of uh deal with, uh, you know, proverbial demon, and then there's uh, you know, demons that they've been written about in scripture, as you said, which is sort of like where your knowledge base rests. And then there's people who claim to be uh possessed by demons, which um, you know, the the Catholic Church has done some exorcisms, and that's what is tied into the movies that most people associate with demons.

So I guess uh let's let's take it back, let's go back uh as far as we can go back and talk about maybe the first writings about demons. Where was and a demon, specifically, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is an entity without a body, and uh within the writings of various religions has been to torment other people on earth or possess them in a way. Is that what a demon, in your opinion, is?

Uh yeah, it pretty much follows along that line. Uh so there are two different types of entities. You have supernatural entities and you have perternatural entities. Uh, and this is a distinction that uh Malachi Martin, uh, who wrote a phenomenal book on the subject of possession called uh hostage to the devil, the possession and exorcism of five contemporary Americans, um, kind of made the distinction about uh so supernatural entities are things that used to be human, that no longer occupy physical space, uh, but yet can sometimes still interact with the world around us.

Whereas pertinatural entities are those that have never been human, that are tied to either uh a locale, a time period, um, or an individual person. In fact, that's why uh the Catholic uh rites of uh Roman ritual, the rites of exorcism, uh, it actually specifies two different types of um exorcisms. You can have um an exorcism of person or an exorcism of locale.

I see. That and that's that's really helpful to know that there's uh kind of those two categories. Um what um I guess you know, as we as we look at that, what has been the writing? Because I have a I I pulled up obviously, you know, these days with the internet, there's so much information, but someone has compiled, of course, on Wikipedia theological demons and names that go with them.

And what I found most interesting as I sort of was doing the research on this, is uh there are demons for various religions, Christian demons, there's Jewish demons, there's uh, you know, Chaldean demons and mythology, there's there's all Hindu even, you know, so there's all these different uh demons that have been given a name, you know, which I find is interesting because it's like how I guess I guess this this kind of goes back.

I guess this in my mind is someone who hasn't studied this stuff and and just sort of looking at this list, I sort of look at it and think to myself, this is very similar to when people didn't understand certain things about the world and the brain and how things work, and people created gods for the rain gods and the fire god and the prosperity gods, and you know, sort of that pagan list of just various entities that sort of could could influence or affect you in your life, and and you had to somehow uh appease them, you know.

I look at this list and I think to myself, how did somebody decide that this one, Artron or whatever, um just taking a look here, ha was the creator god and you know, somehow becomes you know tied to a specific name and a demon? Like, how do you feel about that? What what is what's your take on the fact that there's a list of you know 250 different names that people have associated with something to be a demon?

That is a really good question. Um so there are within very specific contexts, there are you can trace back exactly why something became known as a demon or a god. Like, for example, you take the contrast between Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. Um, Zoroastrianism actually has the oldest religious writings of any religion in the known world. Um, they both came from one specific set of people, the Proto-Iranians. Uh, they split off, and then you had the the gods of Hinduism and you had the god, uh the main god, uh Hura Mazda of Zoroastrianism.

Those two groups grew to diametrically oppose each other. So you'll find the gods of Hinduism have become the demons of Zoroastrianism and vice versa. Um but more I think most people are probably more familiar with the Christian concept of what demons are. And yeah, you have entire rank and files that have been dictated. Some of these do come from uh biblical sources. Uh, for example, uh what most people know as um uh you know uh beazelbub uh is actually a combination of two different words, baal zebub, uh the lord of the fly, uh, that comes directly from the um the Hebrew Bible.

However, a lot of those things are inferences. Um however, uh you find a lot of demonic names uh listed within the pseudopigrapha. Uh there's books like uh Jubilee's and first Enoch, uh especially First Enoch. You have um, do you mind if I go into a small little story here? I'm sorry.

No, not at all. Just uh one one thing I would say is that you know, because you're so versed in the terminol the terminology and the terms, uh, for us who have never studied this before, just keep in mind if you throw out a term out there, maybe if you could give us a little background on exactly, you know, what that means and what it is.

Yeah, absolutely. So the pseudopigrapha is this collection of texts that literally translated from Latin means false epitaphs. Um so there's a lot of really intriguing questions that come up in the Hebrew Bible, and you'll find later writers in the Second Temple Judaism period, which is roughly around like 180 uh BCE to 70 CE. Um, they wrote these texts to try to either advocate for a position or to uh try to uh with other biblical sources answer why something happened the way it was or is written the way it was. Um, so that's what all of these texts. uh came about as.

But in first Enoch, it tells the st uh it retells the creation story. Because in Genesis 6, you have this um this really mysterious passage which talks about the sons of God. And then it talks about uh the Nephilim, these giants. And rabbis have kind of been scratching their heads over that for a long time. Does this mean that ancient Judaism was polytheistic? It believed in multiple gods or what in the world this was? And so first Enoch tried to clarify that passage by retelling the creation story.

And it said that um you know when God put um the generations of men and women upon the face of the earth um angels were set to look over them and protect them. They were called the Watchers. Well there is uh the watchers looked upon the daughters of man and saw how calmly they were and decided that they wanted to take them as wives. So they bound each other in a curse went down to earth propagated with the daughters of man and that produced the Nephilim these giant bloodthirsty creatures that would fornicate with anything and everything they can possibly get their hands on.

So this is actually what calls the deluge which ended the that first generation of the world according to first Enoch. So and you find that a lot of these demons bec were actually remnants of the watchers. And that's a very common theme you'll find all the way throughout Second Temple Judaism where you have these angels that were either set to look over the generations of man or were an angel that was supposed to look over a particular nation that would turn against Israel or against their original purpose and then they were kind of classified as the original demons.

I see and were they without body in other words were these just complete uh you know entities that did not actually exist type of thing that's right yeah they were uh essentially uh they had uh uh spiritual bodies only in terms of the watchers the Nephilim were a very special case because they were both the product of the spiritual and the physical so when they were wiped out their spirits didn't go anywhere they actually just went up into the heavens and kind of circled around uh and that's why they're such a uh pervasive problem and most people would think well what relevance does this really have to anything now um if you actually look in um the Dead Sea scrolls you will find texts that are specifically geared against uh these types of spiritual invasions uh there's a really interesting one that was found in K4 and it's uh labeled 4Q 510 and 11 where it goes um you know and I the instructor uh am making a proclamation of his uh of of his glory in order to instill dread and to terrify all of the spirits of the angels of destruction the spirits of the bastards demons liliths howlers desert dwellers and those who suddenly strike in order to uh uh charm hearts I see so so these uh so the idea is that people um those uh those very old stories what you're saying is that from a spiritual perspective there is some case to be made that those entities still exist and and possibly torment people today is that right yeah I mean if you really if you believe these ancient texts then there is nothing that would prevent these things from being able to to get loose in fact within um within the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Essenes is who we believe were the uh the group that was responsible for producing these documents they really believed that time itself was the temple uh where you had you know each wall was a set um frame of days which equaled three hundred and six days uh they also believed in a solar calendar and that meant that there were four days that were outside of this this holy temple and those were the days in which any demonic entity could come in and cause trouble no matter how pious an individual happened to be I see so is there um in Christian or in Catholicism the church has come up with specific rituals prayers to remove a demonic entity from a person is that seen in the other faiths in Jewish faith and Islam and Buddhism do they have some kind of similar thing going on to deal with demons in their culture um yes to an extent uh like for example um judaism although it has words for um uh a a negative place to be whether it be Sheol or uh Tehetra um they're not it's not really considered pure hell and although there are dark spirits um there's nothing that I at least that I'm aware of within modern Judaism in which prescribes something to try to you know get rid of a demon that might possess a person I could be very wrong I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to modern Judaism so I apologize if I got that completely wrong.

In other faiths you do find the same things.

I think all Christianity kind of shares this there are uh some very predominant uh you know uh sects within Protestantism uh Catholicism definitely has it although they try to steer away from it uh and then orthodoxy you'll find every every one of those shares a um a connection to uh exorcism you do find similar things uh within certain strands of Buddhism um but yeah I I'm I'm not when it comes to like uh other religions I'm not the most um the the most educated so I don't want to go any further than that right right I understand so uh it's funny because you mentioned Lilith and uh I have uh there was a friend uh guy who co-hosted this friend of mine lives up in Los Angeles and um he's kind of more involved in uh exploring with occult type things and uh Lilith is one that's on the list of uh you know within the occult community that sort of uh has a prominent place and I was just curious about you know demons are shared within sort of the occult and and uh you know uh paganism and things like that as well is that right that's right yeah the uh Lilith especially is a really fascinating uh uh character that you'll find she you know she started off life in Sumerian as a wind goddess and then uh at some point in time she became kind of a more generalized night hag and you'll find specific references to her in Ezekiel uh where she lives in the desert Dudael which is where all of the bad things um in the Hebrew Bible happened to reside um and then at some point uh she became the first wife of Adam and I think it's because of this strange transition uh that she features prominently in a lot of um you know in a lot of different types of circles yeah it says uh for those who aren't familiar um it says that uh Lilith is sort of the demon of the night there's a sexual component to her uh she supposedly steals babies in the darkness uh she's one of the uh earlier historical female demons I guess within uh ancient Motesopotamia religion so um is that uh I was kind of surprised uh you know to look at this list and see for instance that they have things on uh they call out things in Irish folklore like we've all heard of a banshee you know the screaming banshee in the night uh that that technically classifies as a demon uh in Irish mythology because uh you know it's an entity without a body yeah but uh so those are more she's and she's they're more related to the realms of fairy more so than they are uh the demonic but I think that the the combination of Irish uh folklore combined with uh you know the rampant use of Catholicism has made some really kind of interesting blends that you'll find uh but there's actually like Ireland's really interesting when it comes to demons uh because you'll find like modern tales of exorcism in which they'll say oh I'm I'm going back to the old country and there's it's referring to the uh to the woods of Ireland for some strange reason.

Huh yeah and I did come across uh some um uh Catholic um r fathers that do that have done recent uh you know um exorcisms there in Ireland uh but what is what is the current status on that because it seems like there's such a culture clash you know there's um you know you when you start to talk about people who are possessed you know there is a wide range of studied mental health issue issues that uh you know humans succumb to you know there are patterns uh that you can look at and discern that you know these five these hundred individuals are all doing something similar and their brain is working this way and you know so there's kind of this cross between where you get into this you know the science of why a human acts the way they do and then uh sort of the uh the other side of things that if you take from more of a theological point of view that this could be a demon if you believe in demons and you've read those texts and you believe that that's the the cause of somebody acting the way they're acting what's your take on that?

Yep uh so you know of course you know early in the uh Catholic church's life um you know there were tons and tons of cases of uh demonic possession even if you look at m the modern Catholic church in uh Vatican City or Italy there are still numerous exorcisms taking place uh on a daily basis um but here at least in the US and other uh countries that are removed from Vatican City um the Catholic Church has adopted kind of a standoffish position against uh exorcism uh in fact in order for the church to deem that an exorcism is necessary uh they would normally go through multiple rounds of um physical testing of uh mental evaluation and only after those things have been ruled out will a the church actually uh bless an exorcism to happen in fact a church has to bless an exorcism uh and actually sanction an exorcism to happen otherwise it uh probably will never never work but uh for me so for example like on Netflix there's actually a um uh a a new documentary that came out which uh is uh from the director of the original exorcist and he goes to the head um exorcist in Vatican City um and actually uh films uh what uh a modern exorcism the heat that takes place and it's vastly different than what you would expect if you've read you know anything from Malachi Martin or looked at modern procedures that most dioceses in the US have set up they are very stringent very strict whereas you watch this documentary and it seems like oh well if this person decides he wants to do an exorcism then he can do it and there's really no testing or anything else involved um so it's that second set that makes me vastly uncomfortable um I think that it is there's the vast majority of times everything is going to be described as either a physical ailment or a mental ailment it's only in the you know one half of one half of one percent would anything ever fall into the realm of the pertinatural right right all right we are with JJ from Southern Demonology and uh you're listening to Spirits and More Radio we're gonna take a quick break just uh couple twenty four seconds here so uh we'll be right back after this you are listening to Spirits and More Radio of a paranormal story tell us at spooks and spirits dot community we're gonna listen anyway and you're listening to Spirits and More Radio we are talking about demons today you guys and uh this stuff goes way back uh I think you know in our modern society today it's you know the place of demons for most people rest within the realm of horror movies Halloween time that sort of thing uh but uh as as JJ's been explaining in other parts of the world now with outside outside of the United States uh there is evidence that there's tendency to lean towards uh demon demonic possession uh and at least within the Catholic Church the the use of uh ritual um you know to exercise out the demon um I wanted to ask you we were talking about mental health there for a second um for instance and I'll just give this as an example uh if you've kept up with the news there's been a uh there's been a uh a number of US diplomats that were stationed in Cuba that started to hear funny sounds and and they were really sick they became sick memory loss damage actual damage to their brain when they did an MRI on them uh and CT scans and that also happened in uh I believe it was in China they started to experience the same thing uh scientists have been uh researching to try and figure that out and I just read an article released yesterday uh from someone who's uh you know um on the neurological side of science who believes that these are classic symptoms of pulsed microwave radiation so essentially you know we're talking about how your microwave cooks food you know how uh how microwave is used to transmit you know communications around the world uh for some reason these people in this location are displaying those sorts of things but as part of that they're hearing stuff that's not there they're hearing strange sounds and you have to wonder to yourself you know if you were in a house in the countryside or whatnot and that started to happen to you you know you're gonna go searching for answers and I think what you're saying is that in some parts of the world they're less discerning to jump to a conclusion that this is a demonic possession as a as opposed to some sort of uh other uh physical and medical you know uh diagnosis.

Absolutely yeah uh you you'll find that tendency a lot uh if there's a you know a locale or a country in which has a solid base of a particular religion and people are much more open to spirit uh spiritualistic concepts then you'll find people gravitate more often to that explanation rather than trying to look for some of the parameters that might be responsible for that.

Yeah. So is there um and I was curious about this you know you go online and obviously the internet as it matures uh we all have learned to take everything with a grain of salt.

So um but as I look at this list it's interesting um people you know I think who don't study you know anything to do with demonology uh don't necessarily know the difference uh when you talk about the devil you know we think of like when you see the exorcist you make this assumption this is the devil speaking through this child you know are all demons you know they don't in the list there's the devil specifically called out so as we sort of uh explore demonology how does the the devil or the fallen angel fall into this category of demonology yep that's a great question so you'll find you know the the you know various religions have come up with uh rank and file uh lists of uh whether it be angels or demons or whatever it may be um and most people uh when they think about uh possession they'll instantly assume that oh it must be the devil you know uh himself that is actually doing this and it's you it's not actually uh in fact only the most rare and extreme cases have ever has the priest ever really identified the you know the uh possessing spirit to actually be uh Lucifer or Samael uh it's you know himself uh usually it's um another nameless demon uh or in actually as reported in um Malachi Martin's book now it could be the um um and the adjunct of a demon kind of like a a minor demon that's doing the work for a major demon I see so is there um and and that that comes that circles back around to you know human perception how would somebody know who or what entity they're dealing with again this is a this is a big long list of names here you know it is and uh honestly I don't know how much veracity you could ever put into one of those uh lists you know uh we we like for example a lot of religious writings we have the names of the archangels um everyone knows who you know Michael Gabriel uh Raphael Uriel um happen to be and their names are very uh symptomatic of the spheres of influence that they have so you know Gabriel is Gaber el which means the the mighty warrior of God uh Michael um is Mikhael who is like God and you'll find the same thing on the demonic side as well like Samael is the gall of God.

So anything that ends with an L and happens to be a demon is is a very specific um they have a very specific sphere of influence that they happen to do.

And then you'll find you know other um demons written either in magical grimoires that you'll find written between you know in the Middle Ages or the Dark Ages um etc but and I've completely forgotten the original question I apologize yeah we're just talking about how the actual like we talk about the devil because uh you know a lot of people you know it's just common it's a common uh you know thought that you know evil the devil's behind evil you know the devil you know the devil's playground you know you have spare time on your hands you know that sort of thing so uh when you see someone having some sort of uh or again it's very I think it's very rare.

I think it's you know it's not very common for people um to to exhibit the specific things that we associate with being possessed by some sort of demon or demonic entity. You know I think I think that uh a lot of times the first step is you take your child or your father or your mother or your sister to the doctor and you say they're not acting right and they're doing this and they're doing that. You know, and I think that there's um I I guess what I'm most interested in is you know there There's a fine, there's a line in the sand between things that people do and exhibit from mental illness.

For example, let's just talk about for a second hypnosis. You know, there isn't a medical, I've done some research, and there's not really like a medical explanation for his hypnosis in the sense that people are suggestible. However, there has been a recent study done at a university where the MRI exposes a different part of your brain functioning and working during hypnosis than when you're not hypnotized. So, you know, people can fall under hypnosis and suggestion. And it's said that this is sort of like their, they know what's expected of them, you know.

They know that a lot of people have seen a hypnosis stage show. They go to it, they know it's expected of them, yet there's this other part of their brain sort of operating at this moment, at that moment in time.

So you kind of have to wonder, like, you know, when somebody is pulled aside and, you know, maybe grandma has said, you know, oh my God, there might be a demon inside you, you know, and you've seen the exorcist, you know, uh, that makes me wonder if if the human mind is sort of playing along and going along with the things we expect to see and hear, you know, uh uh with a with a demonic possession.

So where the line in the sand is, if someone does something supernatural, you know, if somebody speaks a language they don't speak, if somebody can climb up a wall backwards on their palms, you know, these are the sort of things where there is definitely something going on beyond mental health issue issues.

Right. Yeah. So I mean, typically it's it's not just that a person isn't acting right. Uh typically in almost all cases of possession, it's where the person has somehow invited something into themselves. Um and you know, it can be a silent agreement, it can be a verbal agreement, whatever it happened to be. But at that point, once a person has accepted this entity inside, then their free will is pretty much overridden. Um, to the point where a lot of these people that have, you know, have written uh tales and accounts about oh, I'm so sorry.

Um, but a lot of people that have written tales and accounts of this or other people that have you know witnessed the events, they describe where there are periods of lucidity where they know what they're doing, who they are, and then they're and after being um exercised, there are vast swaths of information that they simply no longer have. It's like they have been submerged into unconsciousness and they don't know what they've done or who you know or or who they've been with, etc.

And there's some tr uh I think that's one of the most frightening aspects of it, where if you take this to be a situation that can actually occur, um, to to think that you are no longer in control of your own self, that is a truly frightening experience.

Yeah, I agree. Now, do you in your research and your studies have you come across lots of personal accounts of people who've been um you know possessed and then experienced an exorcism? Is that out there? Are there some cases that you've that you can reference or that you're thinking of specifically?

Yeah, so most of my knowledge when it comes to modern day exorcism uh really comes from the writings of Malachi Martin. Um and it's a very biased viewpoint. Uh at times, you know, he's been accused of having a very specific agenda, etc. And he's kind of a very controversial figure within the Catholic Church.

But he wrote some really fascinating uh books, and one of them, The Hostage to the Devil, he goes through really six different uh cases of possession and shows, you know, takes it from the possessed person's standpoint, from the priest standpoint who conducted the exorcism, uh, and then in afterwards that kind of looks at what happened after that uh exorcism took place. And um yeah, and each one of those experiences are vastly different.

Uh, some of these people fell into theological traps, uh, some of these people uh would, you know, they started to get into uh postmodern philosophy, and that kind of led them down this path. And then there are other symptoms in which um when the author is going through it, um, it identifies that there's no rhyme or reason why someone gets possessed. Um, it's kind of faded from the moment that they are born that this is going to happen to them.

Uh, but then again, all of this is kind of wrapped up in a cloud of mystery because if you take that possession can happen, if you take that you can talk to a demon through the possessed person, can you ever truly trust what in the world is coming out of its mouth? So uh it's something that, you know, is it's very kind of up in the air.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, um as you were talking about that, I was sort of thinking, you know, demons really play into uh sort of this uh ethos of good and evil. And, you know, that's one of the big things that uh within at least uh the Catholic Church, uh, there's been some, you know, sort of like criticism from the outside that there's this pressure, you know, if you don't do this for God, you are in risk of ending up in hell. And demons are a great big pull sitting there in hell ready to take over and get you, you know.

Um, how much of that do you think uh are I guess this sort of the evil side of things that we're talking about, um, you know, uh is maybe amplified, you know, over time within stories and so forth, uh, as sort of uh you better be a good person or this will get you.

It's so yeah, I mean, demon demons can be anything from a cautionary tell to uh a um you know a negative reinforcement to, you know, you better not do this or this is gonna happen to you. Um, and also parables in which, you know, this is something that happened and it was demonically influenced, and uh, you know, you better learn the lesson from this. Uh, and uh they all kind of get wrapped up um with uh we with retelling that, and there are so many different religious works that you know will have these kind of concepts in them that they all blend into the background.

Um, in fact, and this is something that I would love to have the time to do. Um there are frozen fragments of these concepts and ideas that are found within Second Temple Judaism that have been floated up to the modern day uh Catholic Church and to a lot of other religions as well, but especially the Catholic Church, they will rely upon these concepts that were set forth, you know, over 2,000 years ago, and but they're never truly examined. You can't really unearth it and say, this is the reason why we believe this, or this tale has really come to us.

Um, and it would be really kind of interesting and more of like a doctoral thesis to be able to try to tease a lot of those threads apart.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, and one of the things is I sort of looked at the research of this is that uh, like for instance, it said in uh in Buddhism, you know, there is some concept of a demon, but they don't really uh go either good or bad, because I guess there's no good or bad within that faith. Um, so a demon within their realm isn't like a demon within, you know, the Jewish faith or you know Christianity.

Yeah, um, so but you know, there are a lot of different kinds of strains. I think that within you know you'll find that to be the case within like Nichiren Buddhism, um, or you know, pure land Buddhism. But then if you go into more Tibetan Buddhism, there's a uh, you know, that's where you find a plethora of tales about uh you know demons and demonic forces. Uh but then again, I I I have no subject matter expertise in that though.

Yeah, yeah. Um so is there, as we talk about, I kind of touched upon some of these like uh supernatural abilities. Has anyone truly documented something like that other than a witness account? And I think what I'm kind of getting to is uh if you're you're probably familiar with the release of uh of uh uh the the movie Demon House on Netflix by uh Zach Bagins. And uh that story centers around a family of mod.

This is a modern day demon tale or uh possession tale uh that is sort of backed up by some social workers as well as some police officers that supposedly witnessed this girl walking backwards up a wall. Are you familiar with that?

I'm not. Um, in fact, I will go check that out tonight.

Yeah, yeah.

But uh to your question, there there have been uh a lot of cases of documentation around this. In fact, there are uh some very prescriptive manners that uh the Catholic Church will impart to an exorcist. You know, for example, uh when you perform an exorcism, you want to make sure that it is in a stripped bare room um where uh nothing can fly about because there's a lot of cases where you know beds were levitate, uh drawers were open and closed by themselves, objects would go flying around, uh, the room grows extremely cold, etc.

Uh you want to make sure that the person who is being um exercised is uh restrained. Um that's also why an exorcist will have uh several different um assistants uh with him or her with him. Um there is no her in that case, I'm sorry. Uh where uh they their jobs are to A, make sure that the health of the um of the exorcist is um is being uh observed, that to uh they are properly restrained at all times, uh, that they assist with providing extra restraints in case something is going horribly wrong.

Like for example, in the original um exorcist tale, not the story, but the actual story, not the book, but the real story, um, there was a um a uh um um a Protestant priest that was called in, uh I think Episcopalian, but I don't remember for sure, uh, that was called in to try to do some type of exorcism. Um, and the um the boy actually ripped a bedspring out from the bed, stabbed it, and ripped down the uh priest's forearm, uh, where and he had to be immediately rushed off to the hospital.

Wow, that's crazy. Where can we where where was that? Where did you reference it?

That's uh uh there's a couple of different uh documentaries on it. There's um uh but it's the it's the actual um story of uh the uh events that inspired the Exorcist movie. Of course, the Exorcist movie is completely made up and there's so little um you know uh correlation between the actual story and the book itself. Uh but yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. Uh I'll have to I'll look it up and I'll send it to you.

You could tweet that out or throw that up on one of your website or my website. But uh, you know, one of the things I think about when you talk about this is uh, you know, uh you're referencing sort of the exorcism movie and how different that was from the book. Um, and then you're also talking about uh sort of the like what happens within an exorcism. Like you're talking about this kid stabbing somebody with a bedspring. Um, I read some things. I was there's there's uh, and again, I you know, I almost don't want to say the name of this website because I don't know how legit it is.

You know, there's so many websites that are out looking for clicks, and um I'll just say it. I don't know how I don't know much about this website, but the Catholic News Agency website, CNA, has if you put the tag in for demon, you get lots of stuff on there. And they reference many of these fathers that reside within, like you said, Vatican City over in Italy, and what they've seen and what they've said. And uh one of them, it's it's interesting or funny because you talk about like the threshold for what is a possession.

Uh, this particular uh father, I think it's Father DeMeo, uh, you know, was talking about how he witnessed, you know, someone talking. This person was cussing essentially, using bad language towards him and said he was gonna die in a car accident and smiled and was happy about that. And that was sort of the threshold for, you know, he felt really threatened that this was a demon. And uh, you know, from my perspective, you know, how many people are there on the street that have uh, you know, will curse at you and tell you stuff, you know, exactly for various reasons.

And there's another thing, and I want to get your take on this. Have you seen these videos on YouTube where the author of the video claims that magicians like street magic guys are actually demons? Have you seen any of those videos?

No, I haven't. I have seen other videos which supposedly capture like demonic activity, and every single one of those are hoaxes.

Yeah. Well, this guy, this particular account, and you can search it if you put magicians or demons is what is what you can search on YouTube. But this guy has like at least seven to ten videos where he shows, you know, like your busker, like street magician that you would find in a local park or near a tourist hub or whatnot, and he'll show video of that and then talk about how the things the person is doing can only be done with the help of a demon, you know.

Uh, and then he talks about props and he says, Oh, if a magician has these props to accomplish these things, uh, you know, these are clearly just to distract you from the fact that it's really a demon giving him these magical powers to be able to levitate things and make things disappear. And that kind of hits close to home for me because I've been interested in magic since I was a kid. I'm a magician member of the Magic Castle in Hollywood, and you know, that's awesome.

I have a pretty extensive knowledge base on illusions and how to accomplish things and you know, seeing other magicians do things, and it's just really amusing to see that this person's, you know, I don't know if they're, you know, I don't know if they're doing it just to be dramatic and get those clicks or if they really believe it, but they've got a group of people that comment that go, oh my gosh, you're right, this must be a demon that's allowing this guy to levitate a rubber band or whatever it is, you know.

Yeah, you yeah, I swear you can find if you come up with any harebrain concept, then you'll find an entire group of people that support them. In fact, uh at my at my day job, uh we were talking about a uh a new well, I don't know how new it is, but a group of people that believe um that uh anytime someone you know has an involuntary reaction, then that is a sign that that person is watching you and reporting to some mythical agent uh about all of your activities, and it's really frightening.

Well, what's frightening, and this this kind of crosses the line between you know reality, like you talk about something like that at your work, right? Where this idea is that someone's reporting you, okay? Most people know that that's not true, that there's no agency to take information about you. But there's a certain amount of believability, okay. Like if you're someone who can believe that you're possessed by a demon, are you the same person who would believe that?

You know, is there any sort of discretion between which sort of very out there, unrealistic things that we're gonna, you know, grab onto and run with, you know? And so that makes me kind of, you know, I I think it's an example, if nothing else, it's an example of how humans, you know, want to grab on to something and believe, or they want to grab on to uh, you know, a concept to just kind of make sense of it all, you know.

Absolutely, yeah. And I there is defin I mean, uh it's been pointed out time and time again, but you know, people want to believe in something. Uh and if you know, even if it's you know the radical disbelief in something, that in turn can be a belief in itself. Um, yeah, and we of course we want to understand the world around us, and we have a phenomenal more you know amount of tools to do so.

But at the end of the day, you know, each person decides for themselves, you know, it does science or whatever existing methodologies we have, can it explain everything about the observable world, or is there something unobservable, or you know, how far you down that rabbit hole you want to go?

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think another way, for instance, this is uh a topic of interest to me, is sort of the malfunction of the human brain, you know, under certain circumstances where people are either maybe taking a psychedelic drug or, you know, uh a mushroom from the forest, or you know, what sort of writings and texts have been written with someone who's in an altered state, you know, that their reality is is altered and so different from you know what the norm is.

And so I've always wondered, you know, you can you can say, like, for instance, okay, there's a chemical reaction that takes place in the brain that allows someone to be in this altered world that seems so different, you know, maybe so magical, maybe scary, uh, but in such a way that their reality is reality. And you have to wonder and step back and say, is that a malfunction of the brain, or is that particular chemical maybe opening someone up to something we can't see?

Right. And that ties in perfectly with uh near-death experiences. You know, some people have uh, you know, a lot of physicians have stated that the drugs in which are used to attempt to resuscitate somebody can cause very specific reactions in the brain that can stimulate, you know, light, happiness, you know, overdoses of serotonin. But then you also have the exact opposite experiences where people will wake up and they're being chased by demons in this near-death experience, and they've come to despair that that is their going to be the rest of their existence until they are resuscitated.

I mean, those stories just fascinate the ever-living heck out of me.

Yeah, yeah. And there have been stories, there are also stories of people who uh were doctors themselves. And I I need to do more research and find, you know, some specific references uh to actual people that we know exist. Um, but there have been some references to doctors that have uh, you know, seen people uh actually dead on the operating table, their hearts not going. And when they come back, they tell them about. Things that were said in the operating room while they were actually technically not alive. So uh there's a lot of good stuff out there.

But uh with regard to uh demons and and movies and so forth, um, I think you know, case of Emily Rose was like a modern day take on a very old story about Annalise Michelle. I think it's Michelle's how you pronounce her last name. Uh, are you familiar with with that case?

Uh not the act I've seen the movie a couple of years ago, uh, but I'm not familiar with the actual story itself that inspired the movie, though.

Yeah, so the actual story was based on uh a little a girl named Annalise who eventually was diagnosed with psychosis uh, you know, by the medical, her doctor and several people who checked into her. But uh her parents, and a lot of people don't know this, were charged with murder because she was technically diagnosed with psychosis, and then they went on to do a exorcism and lack of food and things like that. And so there was actually a case in uh where the where the parents uh had to go through um, you know, not uh are are being accused of of her death, essentially.

She eventually died, but um, but yeah, that's again another case. I I seem to see that time and time again. You know, someone doesn't know what's going on, there's a demon in you, you know. My laptop's not working right, there's a demon in it, you know, and uh places like Haiti, you know, or I don't know if you're familiar with Haiti and their belief system and all the, you know, they're famous for the idea of the zombie from Haiti.

But um, oh yeah, you know, there's a really good um Vice uh Vice TV um documentary that's it's like a three 15-minute clips on YouTube, but it's that uh the particular guy that's uh interested in pharmaceuticals and things, it's the pharmacopia or something like that. But anyway, he goes deep into Haiti to try and find the source of this idea of a zombie and even talks to uh the author and the guy who did the research in Haiti for um the famous uh movie Serpent in the Rainbow, which has a lot to do with that.

But in Haiti, he discovered that uh, you know, the people there find, you know, they they default really quickly to some sort of like spiritual issue or complication when someone's having trouble, you know.

Absolutely. Yeah, you have the, you know, I I I believe if my memory can drudge it up, uh you you've got the the good type of uh practitioners uh called Honduras, and then you have the the evil ones called Bokurs, and you know, bokurs are always the ones that are responsible for being able to in some places have attributed it to like psychotropic drugs, uh, others have uh actually classified it as kind of like a spiritual malady, uh, where a person can essentially overwrite uh a person's will and make them a willing slave.

Yeah, that I I've seen that for sure. And that's that ties back to what you said about someone giving away their free will to a demon.

Um, one of the things that was interesting uh on that CNA uh news website that links back to a lot of these um, you know, people within the church in Italy is that uh their test to see if someone was possessed had everything to do with them coming in and praying for a long period of time to see if the person would be uh disturbed and irritated with the prayer, you know, and that was one of their tests to see if someone is possessed is can we go in and throw some holy water, you know, quote scripture and talk about these things and then see the reaction of the person.

And I thought uh, you know, how how what a primitive way that was to sort of like discern if someone's possessed by a demon, you know. I mean, I uh it's possible, depending on your uh disposition to various religious texts and practices, that you know, two hours of somebody throwing holy water at you might piss you off if you're not a demon, you know?

Exactly. In fact, a really common kind of trick uh that a lot of these tests will use, at least the better tests, is that they will take two different varieties of water, uh, one blessed by a priest and one not, um, and see if uh the you know the person who is being examined can actually tell the difference by having that flung upon them. Um if they can, then that makes a really good case for, you know, there is documented cases of you know the possessed uh having severe aversions to anything religious in nature. Um, and that can be you know a good test in and of itself uh at times.

Yeah, I I actually like that test a lot. You know, that that that one's good, I think. I like that. Um is there uh uh we were sort of talking about I brought up the magicians sort of thing, and I think this is uh we talked about Father DeMeo in uh in Italy, and this is a direct quote from him. He says, when he's talking about people uh that become possessed, he said it usually starts out of ignorance, superficiality, stupidity, uh actively participating or just watching. Um the consequences are always disastrous.

And he says, the chatter of magicians and illusionists for answers rather than the weapons of the Lord have put that the Lord have put at our disposal. So that that's a very um, you know, those statements are very he's he's talking about, you know, magicians, you know, as as we think of, uh not so much the occult magician, which is probably what he's thinking of, but when he puts illusionist in there, you know, that opens it up to the guy on TV, to David Copperfield, to me, you know, to everybody who's ever uh worked a little magic trick on somebody, you know. So I think that says a lot.

And again, this is I I I just want to, you know, uh state once again that I don't know how credible this website is. There may be no Father DeMeo who ever said that.

Well, it it's really interesting. Um, you know, you get kind of two different takes upon why someone becomes possessed. Uh, you know, there's a take that this is something that is preordained, that you know, the the the legion has selected this one individual uh for some mysterious reason that they are going to be the target of their maledictions. And then you have the other side in which you know they it dictates that a person by living incorrectly uh can open themselves up to demonic infestation. Um, and perhaps both of those are right, perhaps only one of those is right. I have no idea.

Uh, but yeah, especially within certain circles, you will find that latter portion of, oh, if you do anything that even remotely smacks of evil, then you will draw eyes upon you.

I see. And that sort of explains why that why that would be, you know, hand in hand with talking about uh illusionists and and magicians and that sort of thing. Um, this is something I found interesting, and and you may as well, is that uh when I was sort of researching, and I know that you know there isn't a one size fits all for everybody within every sort of faith system, but uh that typically it was saying what I found is that uh within the occult there isn't a strong belief in demons.

However, I have seen there's an interesting person, woman who calls herself a witch, and she she will she casts spells for people for money, of course. So charlatan, maybe, maybe not. Who's uh who's to say or question? But uh one of the things that I've seen several people who claim to dabble within witchcraft and the occult, uh, and witchcraft and again uh Wicca are also there's some separations there as well. But uh but what I understand is I've seen this idea of using demons for your own purposes as an entity to be controlled by you to get what you want.

And I and I've seen several videos and I've seen several texts of people modern day we're talking about. I'm not talking about you know things within some old book. I'm talking about people today on YouTube who uh believe that they can harness the energy of a demon and send it after an ex-boyfriend or their boss or whatever. What do you think about that?

Yeah, uh, in fact, I mean, you don't find it just within, you know, uh witchcraft or occult circles. Uh you even find this within certain sects of Christianity. Uh, for example, the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, uh, they truly believe that, you know, Jesus Christ is not only um, you know, the Messiah, but is also, you know, the greatest magician that ever lived. Uh, it's one of two Orthodox faiths that really incorporate a magical tradition into their belief system. Um, so when when you know it was written that uh God gave power over demons to his followers, they take that as literal truth.

And there's a sect of uh priests within that faith in which it's their job to harness the power of demons, to throw it into a specially prepared scroll, and that becomes a protection scroll or another type of scroll. And there are literally thousands of these things littering around. Um, a lot of universities have copies of these, and I've been able to translate some of them. They're they're fascinating, they're absolutely fascinating.

That's really neat. I would like to see that. If you have one and you can post it on your Twitter or whatnot, we'd definitely like to take a look and retweet that for everybody to see.

Yep, I can do that.

Yeah, yeah. Um, what you know, and that's uh I I remember a story. This is a this is a story I heard at a former employer, someone I worked with, talked about uh someone, a woman who they had to fire. And this wasn't at this is at a different company, so it's all you know, third party. But the story goes that the boss called the woman in and said, you know, I'm sorry, we have to let you go. And she had sort of been a problem for a while. Well, she came into her boss's office and opened her hand and blew some dust all over his desk and said something to him.

And uh, you know, uh just making a uh broad assumption that the Mexican woman probably was Catholic, you know, maybe that falls into that category of what you're talking about, that, you know, under certain, you know, circumstances there is a you know a belief in, you know, kind of these almost like witchcraft kind of things, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I I don't really know too much about that, but yeah, there's you know, definitely a a lot of of tales about that. I mean, in fact, I mean, it's been dramatized in movies more times than not, but even uh uh kind of recent example of Drag Me to Hell, Sam Raimi's movie, um, it it features a lady who was wronged um and specifically puts a curse that will draw uh demonic gaze upon this woman and then it will eventually kill her. It is a fantastic movie, by the way.

But well, what was the name of that movie again for or for uh Drag Me to Hell? Drag Me to Hell. Is that on uh like Amazon Prime video, Netflix, something like that?

Or I think I actually I rented it on Amazon Prime. I don't think it's on any free streaming services, but I could be wrong.

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, definitely. You know, one thing that's interesting is uh, you know, again, I talked about our uh the co one of our co-hosts of some of the early shows, Eric Van Leer, uh, who does uh paranormal investigations and has claimed to see Lilith in her full glory there in a bathtub at a house once before. But one of the things that people always talk about, and him included, is sort of this that demon smell. There's like this smell. Have you have you heard anything about that or seen cases where people that's a commonality within authentic cases of demon possession?

Um, the only thing that I can think of is uh some people will report having a truly rancid smell, uh infuse the area, but I I think that's all I can remember though.

I see. Yeah, you would think that if there were, and again, you know, um you talked about how low the percentages of a demon possession, you know, and it makes you uh, you know, you have to wonder, like of all the people in the world, you know, uh if there are demons, you know, that have the ability to jump into somebody, you know, you have to wonder. You talked about someone sort of making an agreement with with a demon.

And that would come back to again, some of some of these people uh that are practicing witchcraft that uh sort of try to harness a demon, probably in that case would be the most uh vulnerable, right?

Oh, you you would have to think so. I mean, it uh I know that within you know a lot of magical traditions, there's always some sort of barrier that can be put up that would help protect the practitioner, whether it be you know summoning circles or something else along those lines. But honestly, I even if I believe that I had that kind of power and I could communicate with such a perternatural entity, I couldn't imagine any protection even being remotely good enough to uh to be able to protect from some type of invasion or severe negative influence. Um yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of even within like Japanese, modern Japanese, you have a lot of games that can be played that will invite very harmful spirits uh to uh interact with you. And I I just couldn't imagine even attempting to take one of those types of rituals on.

Well, it's interesting you say that because if you think about someone uh who's truly vested in their faith, um you would think that the protection of God would be enough, right? To to ward off these evil entities that want to take over you.

Yeah, and that's usually the the the standard byline uh that a lot of faith will go by. You know, if you believe in God this much, then you can be saved. But you'll find a lot of um ancient historical texts that take the exact opposite route. Even that scroll I referenced earlier, 4Q, 5, 10, and 11, it specifically says that no matter how pious you happen to be, uh if you don't have the protection of the entire community behind you, uh then you're open to invasion and influence.

Right, which would sort of uh almost insinuate that the power of these particular entities is very strong.

Oh, absolutely. In fact, I mean if if you take these these tales to be true, and and personally I uh I mean I I am very open to this concept. I I believe that you know ex exorcism and possession are not just mere um you know uh uh academic topics, but really can be something that can be impactful. Um it's the mo they are the most frightening things that could ever be conceived of. Um, you know, they are pertinatural, they've never worn a human form, they are entirely alien, and they can affect almost anyone at will, perhaps. I mean, who knows how their modus operandi actually is.

But I mean, if if the tales are to be true, then yeah, if you happen to to bring the um you know the gaze of one of these things upon you, then you know, it will be on to you.

Right. And and that's sort of uh, you know, you talk about um the there's this concept that you hear over and over again within like when a family lives in a home, uh that negative energy within between the members of the family can draw attention and sort of be amplified by some sort of entity. Would that be a demon?

It uh it can be. Now you know, it typically you've got several different classifications of what people would refer to as a haunting. You know, you have uh um some people say that you know uh a spiritual presence can be just like a record player playing where you've you know something happened and it got etched into the locale, and that thing can replay. Those are kind of the simplest of things, and then you have poltergeist type of activities, uh, but then in truly severe cases, you have demonic activity, and that's exactly why the Catholic Church has that, you know, uh exorcism of locale.

Um actually I know a priest that has performed an exorcism of locale, and it he he refuses to talk about it. It was just that bad. Uh, but yeah, in a lot of movies, you'll find, you know, all the you know, if you can believe the works of Ed and Laura Warren, um, then the conjuring movies, um, a lot of you know other ones, those document true demonic activity. And the frightening thing with those is that it doesn't matter if you happen to sell your house and then move to another location.

That thing is now attached, has moved from being attached to that locale to being attached to those people. Um, and you will never rid yourself of it unless you can happen to, you know, be cleansed in another fashion.

Yeah, yeah. And that, and that again uh comes back to you know, people looking for answers for what's happening to them, you know. Uh if you sort of uh, you know, people live their lives different ways, and some people uh, you know, gravitate towards the negative in their life and they're sort of upset and a grumpy person, and bad things happen, and it seems like always bad things happen. And then some people get a flat tire and they brush it off and and move on with their day, you know.

So that sort of leads me back to the thought of uh, you know, perspective too, that somebody can um maybe feel like they have this negative energy pouncing on them, uh, you know. Um what I think would be very interesting is like uh the case of a house where a family felt like they were under negative influence, you know, for some time and then they moved and the next people and the next people and the next people. But as you said, these things sort of the idea is that they would follow you too as well.

Um, would there be, because you know, technically a demon who has been a person before and has died and then come back, that's sort of more along the lines of what we talk about, a haunting, you know. Uh where's the line between you being a demon in your future after you've died and want to torment people and just simply being a spirit or a ghost? Is there even a line between this and that?

Um, excuse me. I don't think that there is. Like uh typically a demon is always classified as something that has never been a person. Um now, if you happen to be like the the adjunct or the avatar of a demon, perhaps maybe they could be uh have been human at some point in time, but I have no earthly idea. But no, typically if you um if you have died and you happen to have come back um and you're exerting some sort of influence upon a location, uh then typically that would either be a spiritual residue or as a kind of a malevolent spirit that would be classified as like a poltergeist.

Right. Because as you said, like the thought behind the demons that have never been people is their power, you know, their ability to uh overcome someone's either faith or, you know, because we talk about, you know, you think about people who uh, you know, this concept of you know, spirit guides or uh angels that follow you and help you, you know. If you were under some sort of demonic attack, you know, and you believe there are demons, then you probably believe that you have some on the good good team on your side, you know. Uh, and I wonder what sort of influence there is.

Obviously, nobody knows, but the idea being that, you know, there there are good and there are evil entities.

Right. Um, it's a good question. Uh, you know, there's a lot of angel tales. I have never really gotten into anything modern when it comes to the um angelic, uh, but uh you can also take the opposite approach to that, though, which is you know, seeing an angel is not necessarily a good thing. Like, for example, in almost all of the Hebrew Bible, um, if you ever have run across God, you are not going to have a great day. Like it is not a great experience to be put in front of the Almighty. Uh is typically, I mean, just the power alone is just enough to kind of fry you right then and there.

And angels share some of those attributes. So, you know, you could be maybe not to the same extent, but you could still be like spiritually fried just by witnessing one of these types of uh influences.

Interesting. Yeah, I've never thought of it from that perspective that uh you always think of, or at least people have these ideas when they think of heaven and the pearly gates, and you know, there's uh that the entity of God would be a loving, warm experience. But what you're saying is this concept that it's hardcore energy beyond human, you know, uh consumption, really.

Right. I mean, and that's not saying that you know God isn't loving or caring or anything like that. It's just the fact that I mean it it is, you know, the the infinite, uh, and to be put, you know, for a spec to be put in front of the infinite, that's you know, normally not going to wind up good for the spec.

I understand. Uh is there um you know, as we're talking about like demons in Halloween time and and horror films, um, you know, most of the time what people love about Halloween and horror films is they can sort of remove themselves from like this high-tech existence we have today, where we have tons of information. You know, there's explanation for a lot of things, but there's still this desire in people's mind to kind of let go and believe for a moment that there is a monster in the closet.

Yeah, uh, it's uh in fact, I mean, uh I do the same thing. I uh I I love I love horror movies of any, you know, any way, shape, or form. Um and you know, there are some really well, there's some decent uh demonic inspired type of uh films out there, but uh yeah, just uh just a want to be able to A let go, B believe, and C uh to truly feel the you know a bit of adrenaline adrenaline, you know, course through your veins as something scares the you know the bejesus out of you is always a good thing.

Yeah. Well, you know, and the thing one one interesting side to this too is that uh horror movies and sort of the traditions of Halloween allow people to do that, but there are many people who have experienced something that is unexplainable, that they've gone through their mind and you know, crossed the T's and dotted the I's on explanation. How could this have happened to me? And they come back to the same place that probably you and I have come back to that you can't find an explanation for what's you know uh happened to you in sort of a supernatural, paranormal way.

Oh, yeah. In fact, I've you know, I I've had um numerous readers, I mean and listeners of mine uh write in where they have what they consider to be under supernatural attack or pertinatural attack. Um and of course, you know, I'm I'm not a practitioner of anything. I I can't really provide a lot of practical things besides you know some of the basics that I happen to know. But um, I mean, it it's frightening. I I feel my heart goes out, and I've you know, I'll do everything that I can.

I'll try to reference priests, I'll try to reference religious organizations, you know, anything I can do to try to assist in the ways that I can. So it's uh it's frightening.

Yeah, yeah. And it's also interesting the different approaches that are taken, you know, depending who you are. Uh, for instance, you know, people of the occult will, you know, witchcraft will burn sage and things. They talk about cleansing a space that way, uh, which is different from you know, uh Catholic response to something like that, uh, or you know, a Buddhist response or someone with an Islam or different faiths. Um, is you is there a fear? For instance, you know, you you you expressed your belief that these things are beyond just, you know, discussion and uh and content for movies.

Um for instance, I'll give you an example. There's a podcast which I'm fond of uh called Mystic Menagerie, and uh it's two guys out of the UK. They did it for I think a year and a half, they got up to about 20 episodes or 22 episodes uh before they were unable to continue.

But one of my favorite episodes is where they summon uh a brigade of demons or something like that, and this guy who he's a he's a guest on their show, but they go through this whole thing and some music comes on that's creepy, and he makes some statements about the demons being here, and it's specifically they're called just for everyone to witness, you know, they're supposed to maybe call in and say that you know, my blinds flipped up off the wall, or you know, I don't know what my cat jumped up when you said that, or or whatever it may be. Something something was supposed to happen.

But, you know, I love listening to it because it's in the middle of the night when it's dark and I'm by myself and I'm trying to sleep, and I hear this droning of this thing and these guys summoning a brigade, two, not one brigade, two brigades of demons, you know, as if one wasn't enough, let's get 24 of them in, you know. And so they do that, and then at the end of the show, they call the demons and they send them back to where they're ever supposed to be. So for me, uh not I I don't have a fear of hearing something like that or or something like that. Is that different for you?

Is that is that too much pushing along the lines of you know, dabbling in something that shouldn't be dabbled in?

Yeah, uh I mean it's something that uh I I'm not even sure if I would want to listen to it. For example, um there's um a lot of uh urban tells that you're fine within uh you know Japanese culture will uh which will state that if you hear about this, then this will happen to you in you know three days or a month or whatever it happens to be. And I'm always torn, do I want to even, even though the likelihood of that happening is so minuscule to be nil, almost be nil, do I really want to invite that kind of uh of chance into my own life?

Uh and it's something that sometimes I'm like, ah, it's fine, and other times I I just stop.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because my wife is uh kind of the same way that she doesn't even want to watch horror movies, and she's uh the furthest thing from someone who goes to church every Sunday, but uh, you know, that is just something in her mind that she has this something in the back of her mind saying, Don't invite these sorts of things, and watching a scary movie about demons or ghosts or this or that sort of conjures these things, you know.

Obviously, you've watched your fresh air horror movies, you don't feel the same, but it's she that's something that she's strongly, you know, doesn't want to watch any horror movies.

Yeah, uh in fact, my my wife, she was the exact same until um she noticed that's pretty much all I watch, and then uh she actually started watching along with me. Now she's really into them as well. Uh but yeah, I can definitely understand that sentiment, you know, in and all that much.

So yeah, uh, you know, and they talk about like during the filming of Amneyville Horror things happening on the set. How much of that do you think is reality versus maybe some uh extra marketing material?

Uh I would I mean I I I've yeah, I've watched and heard a lot of those tales uh on particular sets, you know, strange things happen. Same thing for the filming of the original uh Exorcist. In fact, I lived maybe three blocks away from the Exorcist stairs that happen to exist uh right on the border of uh Georgetown and um Glover Park areas in DC. But I think that the vast majority of those tales are always marketing materials uh because it makes a great story. Oh, hey, we're we're telling a bad story, and then bad things happen to the people that were telling it.

Um but I mean, then again, I wasn't there, and I'm not gonna say that they're categorically untrue all the time, but I would say take that not with a pinch of salt, but with an entire sack full.

Yeah, I'd agree with you. But uh it it it is powerful. People love to hear that sort of thing. You know what? Let's take a quick break and then we're gonna uh wrap it up. I want to know the scariest thing you've ever seen or heard about. All right, we'll be back right after this. The infinite turnable, the waves for the easier phones rubble on forever. You're my fave. Me and Bubba, my little brother. We listen to you every night.

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And we're talking about demons. We have got ext we went extensive on the demons today, don't you think, JJ?

Just by a little bit, and that's a good thing.

Exactly. We got this long list of demons here I'm looking at, and uh, you know, I just uh I don't know. I still I still don't know if I would recognize one by name. Let's just put it that way. But uh, but yeah, it's uh it's certainly an i a really interesting topic. Uh I would like to see, you know, more evidence as technology has changed. I mean, we're not living, you know, in the 1800s, the 1700s, the 1500s, 1400, 1300s, you know. I mean, we've got we've got ways to video this stuff, you know.

And uh I would like to see far more uh video evidence of people who uh claim to be possessed, and also uh if there is a uh you know, videos of exorcism, I would really love to see one of those. I sort of poked around. If if you know of one, please, like a good one, please put that over to me so I can get that out to everybody too. Uh but I think as time goes on, there definitely is an expectation that we're gonna see more evidence tied to these um, you know, events that are happening with people uh that are categorized as a possession, demonic possession.

Uh, and you know, so hopefully that's in our near future. Um one last question I want to ask you before we wrapped up the show was what is the scariest thing you've ever experienced yourself uh with related to maybe the supernatural? And and uh, you know, probably, I mean, we can throw it in there, it may have been your Japan experience, but uh if there's other things you've heard of from credible people within your family or your close circle of friends uh that that were just over the top, we'd definitely like to hear about that.

Yeah, so uh I would definitely put that as the um hold on one second, sorry. Sorry, I thought I was about to sneeze, and I probably am, but um anyway. So yeah, the Japanese experience was definitely the the strangest um and most frightening, but I do have a few others. Um so I am from uh the smallest town in the state of Tennessee uh called Slayden, uh has a population of about 113 people, so a very small place. Um I grew up in a uh a log cabin that had been in our family for 200 plus years.

Um had a lot of uh strange things around it, and the entire land around is dotted with um old Indian burial mounds. So this kind of like is a ripe place uh you know, mixed in with human human suffering and you know, graveyards every uh half mile that you happen to travel down the road. So um no matter where you went, there's a story to go along with it. Uh but when I was a kid, I was actually uh playing Fright Night with a group of neighbors across the street, and they have there's like four or five kids there.

Um so we would go over, and this was right around Halloween, maybe two nights before actual Halloween started. Um, we'd go over there, I would dress in the white uh white towels, and I try to look like a ghost, and we'd just try to scare each other silly. Um well on one of these nights, I went around the back and uh was hiding trying to find uh where all of these kids happened to be, and there was no one around until I happened to turn my head and look into the back of the woods.

And this was an area of woods that we locally call the colon, um, because it's filled with little small holes that will easily break someone's foot. And I saw someone back there, and it's a really dangerous area to be in. And I thought it was the eldest uh girl who was maybe two or three years older than I was, um, because it was a a really kind of bright shining silhouette. Um and then I I ran to the house, opened the door, and everyone was there looking at me, like you know, wondering where I had been. And I turned my head to look back and there's nothing there anymore.

Now, what that happened to be, I you know, I'm not gonna say. I have no earthly idea, but uh it was something that uh stayed with me for a very long time though.

Yeah, that you know, those are the those are the kind of experiences that you just you know it's not uh doesn't take much to realize that you know there isn't really a good explanation for it.

Right, exactly. And it it's just that air of mystery and what in the ever-living world was it. But the thing is, is that you know, with that experience and even with the the Japanese one that I had, uh, they are unique in that they fill you with a very particular sense that something's not right. Um, it almost feels, you know, slightly alien. Um, and it's those feelings that I don't know if they give it credibility or not, but you know, that is the my kind of my litmus test is is something really kind of going strange here.

And if I feel that that fear of the alien, um then I I know at least to me that's good enough to chalk it up to being like a supernatural type of experience.

Yeah, well, the other part of it too, and this is I don't know if you agree with this with your experiences, but with my uh, you know, I've had a handful of experiences over my, you know, my lifetime. So uh we're talking about things that have happened, you know, with five, six, seven, eight, ten-year gaps between them. You know, these aren't things going on all the time. This is these are rare occurrences. Um, but what I've found is that I almost have trouble believing my own self of what I saw. You know, after after some of these events, I've thought to myself, did that just really happen?

You know, could that happen? What was there? What, you know, there maybe there's something I didn't realize, I didn't catch. How could that happen? You know, uh, I don't know if you feel the same way, but I almost feel like uh it has great significance when someone experiences something completely unexplainable. Uh it has great significance. You ponder it, it, you know, you maybe can't sleep at night thinking about it. And as time goes on, it sort of slips that gravity of it sort of slips away and slowly fades. Is that the same for you?

Or do you still feel that same intense feeling as when it happened?

Um, it it definitely fades, but it it's still in sharp contrast to the rest of the experiences I had from those, you know, from the surrounding time periods. Uh I still feel that, you know, gut shot of uh a fear uh that hits me like a bullet train. Um but no, I mean I definitely question myself, and and I've had a a small handful of these types of experiences too. And I always wonder, is it something my brain cooked up? Was it a random neuron firing in the wrong direction for some strange reason? Or did I really experience that?

Or if it happened far in the past, have I kind of like romanticized it and made it into something that didn't actually happen? And uh yeah, you have to constantly question yourself. If you don't practice brutal self-honesty, then um you know you live a life unexamined, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are people you hear of uh like shadow people, I've heard that, you know, lots of stories about that. And just the other day I've I've moved into a new place and I'm sitting in a in a new place with a window that looks upon a very short bank with dry brush and things like that. Not a very pretty view, but uh just the other day I was looking out the window just yesterday, actually, and uh I saw the what looked like the shape of a person, okay, but it was dark, no features of a person, just the really rough outline move across the window quickly.

And I thought, you know, just as if you had, you know, witnessed somebody passing by your window that you didn't directly look at. So I sort of saw this dark movement of a person move across my window, and I realized that wasn't on the outside, that was a reflection of the inside of my house.

And I actually it was it was enough for me to get up and go outside and look down the side of my house and just make sure like a gardener wasn't there or or my landlord, you know, you know, in the backyard because I wanted to, you know, investigate a little bit myself and make sure there wasn't a person there. But I don't put much credibility. I'm not gonna say I've seen a shadow person based on that, but uh it was uh the closest thing to a shadow person I've ever seen.

Oh wow, yeah, that would that would have freaked me out just by a little bit too.

Yeah, yeah. Well, hey, listen, uh, thank you for being on the show, JJ. Can you tell people where they can find uh Southern Demonology so that they can go check that out too? What you know, the website where they can listen to it, all that good stuff.

Absolutely. So uh if you go to uh southerndemonology.com, uh you will find a link to all of our uh episodes. We currently have eight out there, so it's not a tremendous amount. Uh we also have uh, and then on that page you'll find links to um all of our other sites. We have a Facebook account, a YouTube account, which is becoming active. Um all of our uh all of my podcasts are happen to be stored on SoundCloud, so you can actually listen to things directly there or visit the the link to go directly to the SoundCloud account.

So awesome. Sounds simple to do, and I definitely recommend that. It's one of the shows in my lineup of uh of podcasts that I like to listen to, and uh I think you guys will enjoy it too. Uh, you can find all the uh past episodes of Spirits and More Radio at spiritsandmore radio.com and uh it's also you know our Twitter account at Twitter uh at our at uh uh scary horror news on Twitter is where you can get links to all the up the real-time stuff that's happening. But uh anyway, thanks again, JJ, for being on the show. Really appreciate it. I think people are gonna love this one.

I really like this show. Uh I think this went great and uh appreciate your time. Uh we're right here at the one hour, 50 minute mark, and uh we'll leave you guys with uh simple man, Leonard Skidd.