Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, influence, and how to protect against the unknown? If so, then welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more.
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Wandering Road Podcast. I'm your host, Chris, and joining me today is JJ from the Southern Demonology Pod. Alongside JJ, we have a couple of special guests with us, Father Michael Birdsong and his son, Deacon Josh. And for today's show, we're going back to school for Demonology 301, where we're gonna discuss the concept of free will and the demonic. How does the demonic influence our free will to do bad things? How y'all doing today, gentlemen? Doing great.
Yeah, doing good. Actually, I wanted to frame the conversation if you don't mind a little bit. Absolutely. Oh, I do mind. Okay, I don't care. I want to do it anyway. So, my initial supposition for because Chris and I were talking about oh, hey, we've got some time this weekend. Should we do an episode? And so we started battering around what we wanted to talk about, and I proposed this topic mainly for a very selfish reason.
And the reason is is that we have I have talked ad nausea about free will being not in absolute but a protection against the intrusions of the demonic, ways that they can get around that, yes, but it's still there. And the question I have always had and have not been able to answer is why is that the case? The Bible does not talk about free will, it does tangentially, but there's no words that directly correlate to that.
Now, there's a lot of things that come afterwards, whether it would be through rabbinical debates or through the council of Trent, among others, but there's nothing that's directly mentioned, so I've always been curious about the origins and how this works, and that's why I wanted to get Father Mike and Deacon Josh into the conversation as well, because they can have some great insights into this, and then I want to follow that up with some readings from hostage to the devil. Also, I may have been thinking about this in the wrong way.
Well, if you guys don't mind, and and I really truly do not want to take over the show, but take away, take away. Well, when when I got the invite earlier in the week, I immediately went to prayer, and because it is a subject that we're not only discussing on here today, but JJ U and I are discussing, and I'm actually having classes at the church uh once a month for this purpose, and uh it's just I believe it's very, very important, but only subject to free will. I'm so glad that you brought that up.
And if you don't mind, I have I have just a few scriptures that I would like to read to you both and Joshua as well, to kind of spur this conversation on, because I believe it's very important, and I believe that our Lord laid it upon JJ's heart to talk about this for such a time as this, because the enemy, whether we realize it or not, but I'm sure you guys have noticed, is right in your face now. There's no more hiding, if you will. It is there, it's in your face, and it's like, challenge me if you dare.
And so, but if he gave us a will to do our best to honor him and to love him and respect him and to worship him, God is being glorified in that, and Christ is being first served in that. So God gave us that free will, if you will, to love him and to follow that first and greatest commandment, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And plus, not to forget the second one in which all the law and the prophets hang on, you know. Love your neighbor as yourself. Christ said, On these two hang all the law and the prophets.
And that's what I want you to get into your heart before I even begin to read this. But listen very closely, and I will make this very brief, but I entitled this little short couple of pages as considering the cost or my will to accept the cost. Because when it comes to free will, there's two things there's a choice and there's a consequence, and you have to be willing to partake of the cup of Christ when you go down this road, and I think that's very important.
But Philippians chapter 1, verses 29 and 30, it says this for to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but here we go, guys, but also to suffer for his sake. I want that word suffer to break into your heart for just a moment. Continuing having the same conflict, there's another key word. Number one was to suffer, and now, number two, we see the word conflict, which you saw in me and now hear in me. And in our free will, we have a choice to make, and each one of us will make it.
I don't care who you are, where you are, what you're doing, you are going to make this choice to be with God or not. And both of those decisions, if you will, when it comes to free will, they both have a temporal and eternal consequence. In other words, if your free will is, I'm gonna follow God with the best of what I got, you know. I mean, that's kind of like Christ on the cross when he said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. If you want me to break that down in southern redneck English, is Father forgive them because they're doing the best they can, you know.
But but they're there, no matter what choice you make, either for the kingdom of God or the kingdom of hell, both of them have a temporal and eternal contact. In other words, a right now and then forever where you are, but the choice is yours, and one way can give that instant gratification, if you will, but the other may or can give instant suffering. And when it comes to the things of the kingdom of God, we must ask ourselves this question, JJ. Are we willing to fulfill the last beatitude from the Sermon on the Mount? What is that last beatitude?
I'm glad you asked because I got because I got the answer right here. In Matthew, in Matthew chapter 5, 11 and 12, it says this blessed are you when they revile and persecute you. I could stop right there and say, All of you know, sometimes when I choose the right decision, it still bites me in the ass. Would you agree? Dear Lord, yes. Exactly. So he says, Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you and say all kind of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad.
Now that part really upsets me because when I'm being persecuted and I'm going through these trials and tribulations, and I and somebody's done got on my last nerve. The last thing I want to do is rejoice about it, JJ. But he goes on to say, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And so there we have to we have to make that decision, unfortunately, out of time, that the choice has to be made, whether you realize it or not. And that affects our free will.
And there's only one circumstance that I can think of that affects free will, and it's the one and only choice, the choice that we will make concerning our soul. That's what it boils down to. When it comes to free will and and making that choice, whatever we decide is going to affect our immortal soul. How can you say that, Mike? Once again, I'm glad you asked. Because in Deuteronomy chapter 30, verse 19, it says, I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and cursings. And then, and then Chris, God gives us the doggone answer.
Therefore, choose life that both of you and your descendants may live. The same thing, the same concept is spoken by our Lord in Saint Matthew when he says, But Jesus answered, You do not know what you ask. The disciples came to him and was wanting to be with him and wanting to be by side and wanting to be all this with Jesus. And Jesus is telling the disciple, You don't even know what you're asking, bud. And then he says, Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink and be baptized with a baptism that I am being baptized with?
They said to him, as each one of us would say right now, if we were standing before Christ, we would definitely say we're able, because we think we are. But I'm gonna I'm gonna stop there on my part, and and it may open up to where I can share more in a few minutes. But I just wanted to bring that in, that in our free will, and I think that's kind of like what JJ was saying in the beginning, and what God was really trying to show JJ. Yes, we have free will, but you know what?
You got to be careful sometimes what you ask, and you have to ask yourself, am I willing to count the cost to say yes all the way? Because there is consequences. We're we're opening our in our saying yes to the Lord, we're actually also opening ourselves up to the infernal for a greater level. However, God is faithful to strengthen us because when I find myself weak, when I find myself that I can't do it, and I realize that I've been trying to fight demons in my own strength and wind up in a damn wheelchair, all of a sudden think, well, wait a minute, I'm trying to do this on my own.
And so, me knowing that I have a choice to make, I can say, okay, I continue to try to do this on my own, or I trust God that He'll keep me through the suffering, even until the point to where I've opened myself up so much that if I'm in the middle of an exorcism, we don't give up. But even into the point to where the thing may try to take over me, I got to know that I know that I know that when I'm weak, and from that free choice that I made, that Christ is in me and strengthens me to battle. Even even the one that is possessed, they can in the middle say, choose Christ.
Does that does that automatically mean that all of a sudden everything's going to be okay and there's not going to be any more battles? Of course not. It may drive up a couple of notches between the person exor the person that is possessed and the exorcism. Because with following Christ, there's a cost, there's a temporal cost, but the eternal cost is so well worth it. It's so well worth it. So I'm gonna back off here. I got a page and a half left if we get to it, but we don't have to, but I'm gonna back off here, and I think I probably spurred a good conversation.
Father Mike, I got two things to say first. First, you are an army of rhetorical questions, and I love it. And the second is, and this is a lot more personal for me, but when I was watching your video feed as you were talking, especially when you're at the part where you're talking about the physical challenges and how you can do it. I swear to God, I saw my uncle, who was like a dad to me, speaking. Your eyes were the exact same. Well, it I almost bust out in tears just right then and there. Because it was it for a moment, and only for a moment, the resemblance was uncanny.
And I swear I was seeing my uncle speak to through you. Anyway, sorry.
Well, one one thing that I will say to you, JJ and Chris, guys, I know you're a man, but never hide your emotions. Don't ever do it, don't hide them because they're a great tool and they show the heart of man.
You know how it is in the South. You can always hide.
Oh, yeah, we're we're taught to suck it up.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, I come from a Caribbean household, so I know that all too well.
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Chris and I often share TikToks going over how the the concept of being a man overrides everything else.
Gentlemen, the reason that JJ and I we picked this topic, and Father Mike, thank you for sharing your thoughts there earlier. We really appreciate that. I think that had to be said, you know, because a lot of folks like to ask, well, the question of like free will is a free will, how is that explained? How can it be affected? So that uh I think is helpful for folks to get a better understanding. But when it comes to free will and the infernal, the demonic will folks will use those words interchangeably throughout the show, possibly.
My question is well, it's it's a question, and also I view it in I like to use this analogy of let's say you're walking down the street and you see like a billboard or someone advertising like a gentleman's club, and they're like, Okay, I'm really interested in this, but you know deep down inside, like what's really going on in there, right?
That's not necessarily like if you choose to go, you're not really being your free will is not being like directly, you're not being directly controlled to go, you're actually making the choice, but yes, you're being nudged in a particular direction, and that's how I view and correct me if I'm wrong, Father Mike, because you actually have done battle with the enemy of how they influence people.
Right. There's a there's a very distinct separation when it comes to affecting someone's free will versus affecting the sins of the flesh. And I believe it's in the uh the first letter to the Corinthians. I don't know, it may, it may be the second, but Saint Paul is is talking about that, and he he warns us that the temptations, if you will, let's let's get the word uh free will out for just a moment and let's talk let's talk about the flesh of man and the soul of man.
We have to understand that we have been affected from creation, especially in the Psalms, we read that we were we were born into sin. In other words, we were born into original sin that took place with Adam and Eve. We have to remember that and that free will, uh, as I said before, it uh or that uh excuse me, that state of uh sin that we're in, original sin that we're in, affects the uh the flesh versus the things of the spirit. And Saint Paul, he's very faithful to list those things, Josh. If you will look it up, the just just Google works of the flesh.
And those are the things that naturally and in our in our sin nature that affects us in some ways to make a decision to sin. I know that don't make sense right now, but as soon as Josh finds this, it will. And so that is continuously in battle, the works of the flesh that is in our soul, is continuously in a battle of the things of the spirit. And if you continue on in that, in those verses, he spells it out.
Okay, here's the works of the spirit, and what he means by that, the spirit of righteousness that comes from Christ, versus the things of the flesh of man or the the spirit of man itself that's in original sin. But Josh, do you have that up yet?
Yeah, I do.
Read that and let the guys continue on with that. But this is the works of the flesh versus the works of the spirit, and you can't you can't in this, JJ, say, of course, there is a free will, but as we've talked about before, there's there's a difference that the term free will is taken out of the concept. When it comes to we have free will, most of the time it is tied to a major life decision. So we have free will in our daily actions.
However, I want to say in my own ignorant way, because I don't have the answers, there's there's a difference or there's a level of difference that we use in free will. I can uh case in point, I'm faced with a decision to where I can have everything good right now and enjoy my life and the quality and the the quantity of life, even, versus I just die right now. And those are the things that when it comes to the quote unquote the demonic, that's the level of free will that we're talking about. But it it does stem from this root, and we have to understand that.
Josh, go ahead and read that while I put some liquid on my vocal cords.
Right? It's actually in the book of Galatians. That's it, that's it. Now the works of the plash are evidence of sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these, I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not. At the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with his passions and desires.
Alright, so so with that being said, we can see where the line has been drawn, so to speak. So then we have to we have to make a choice. And the easy choice to where we don't have to fight any battles, JJ, is to continue in our nature, our original nature, so to speak, in the works of the flesh. If it feels good, do it. In other words, eat, drink, and be merry. You know what I'm talking about? However, on the spiritual side of those things, there's a price to pay in doing so. And that also affects our free will, so to speak. That I'm gonna follow the straight and narrow road.
I'm gonna go the road to where it was easier for a camel to enter into the eye of the needle, so to speak. And but anyway, I can see behind the H JJ's wheels are turning. So I'm gonna back off on that.
I was wanting to bring in little Malachi Martin.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Because I have been rereading the appendices to hostage of the devil.
Awesome.
Where he brings in a lot of the theology behind the uh this idea. Because in, for example, if you go and look up free will and the Wikipedia, then you'll only get the really kind of pat answer. Well, really, the Bible doesn't talk about it, and it was instead introduced probably through stoicism.
A very, yes, a very clouded explanation. I got you.
And I'm like, okay, that doesn't really answer anything. So I started to cast my net wider. And this is what Martin, a few of the things Martin has to say on it. God's decision to create intelligent beings, humans and spirits, free to love him and free to reject him, was intimately linked with his decision to become a human being.
Yes, yes.
But in speaking of that decision of God, we have to make the distinction between the way we understand we talk about it and how God made and implements it. Our understanding of and speech about this decision is a step-by-step process. First, creation of the spirits, then their rebellion, then the creation of mankind, then mankind's revolt, then the conception and birth of Jesus, then the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus and the consequent salvation of mankind. Then the life of men and women beset by those spirits who revolted. We have to think of this in our way, but that is our limitation.
JJ, you're my hero.
I don't know about that, but uh and he continues for God, there was and is no step-by-step process. He did not, as it were, first decide to create the spirits, then afterthought to create humans, and then on further reflection to become a man. Creation did not proceed like topsy, it was one decision englobing spirits, humans, and God made man. It was a decision not made at any given point in time, but in eternity. God was never without decision, and this means that his decision was integral in cause and effect from the start.
He his view of what everyone would do at any given moment was identical with his view of what everyone did, does, and will do until the end of all time and space. That view was complete always, and every detail of the decision was taken integrally and wholly from eternity in view of every possible human action and reaction and result.
I like that very much. To me, it is kind of straight and to the point that you have to come to a place to I'm gonna say a place of understanding. Would that be right, JJ? Yes. Those of you that know me, I always go back to the scripture. But while JJ was reading that, I was reminded of the minor prophet Hosea, chapter four, verse six, I believe. He says, he says, speaking of the Lord, my people are being destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Now we can stop right there or we can go forward.
But going forward, it gives you the reason why that my people have rejected the knowledge, and that goes right back to the I'm gonna say the ever so innocently, but the nature of free will, because sometimes I think that we get so wrapped up in things that we don't even really understand at times the decisions that we are making. We just do it on the fly. I've said this many times, JJ. If you remember the way conversations go these days, that we are truly not listening. We're listening to give an answer, and we're not listening to understand. Does that make sense?
It plays hand in hand with what Alistair McIntyre, a famous philosopher from Vanderbilt, would often say, we have forgotten how to have moral conversations.
Exactly, exactly. And I would dare say, JJ and Chris, that when it comes to this type of listening, even into this type of conversations that people have, we our free will at that time is to is to listen to give an answer and yet not really care. Or are we listening to make a difference and even listening to strengthen our own self of what is going on? And so when it comes to the free will of man and the infernal, sometimes we're hearing it and making a decision, but not really hearing it to understand what really is going on. You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, let me actually reframe rephrase that into our current situation. Please do. So Chris and I, we run actually, all of us here, we run podcasts, we have conversations to hopefully have entertaining and educational things to put out to show people, you know, to maybe educate them, to maybe make them laugh along the way and think, etc. Absolutely. You know, that could be the end all be all.
Oh, we want to just get some content out there, we want to have some fun while we're doing it, and yeah, on on the surface level, that may be true, but I approach this very differently from most other types of conversations that I may have.
Yes, and that is it almost felt like this entire day has been one of going to church in the sense that I spent the morning in research, contemplation, in prayer, and then I came to this conversation as one amongst peers and friends and brothers to not to try not only to answer a vital question, one that has been buzzing around in my head for a number of years, but to take inspiration from and to learn from each one of you, and that is the kind of choice. Do you want to go through life fulfilling the superficial, or do you want to dig deeper?
And I think that's where the genius of Malachi Martin kind of comes into play. Yeah, because when I was reading the these appendices, the hostage of the devil, he did not couch it in terms of free will, rather, he framed the conversation in the sense of the thing that makes us human, our humanness is really all about the nature of Christ. Yes, the closer that we are to being human, the closer we are in the spirit of God, and then he directly contrasts that to the enemy. And I'm go, I'm gonna read one more piece here if you don't mind.
Yes, I've actually got a few, but please do rebutting those who harassed him on the streets of Jerusalem and who reviled him as an evil man, Jesus said fiercely, You belong to your father, Satan, and you are eager to gratify the appetites which are your fathers. He from the beginning was a murderer, and as for truth, he has never taken his stand on it. When he utters falsehood, he is only doing what is natural to him, he is all false, and it was he who gave birth to falsehood.
Yes, and on the lips, and he goes on further to say that the term murderer doesn't have that kind of legalistic sense that we have now, but rather it's more of a connotation of our blasphemy and desecration, and you know, he then goes on to say that the second aspect of Lucifer's rebellion was one of falsehood. Again, on the lips of Jesus, this word referred not so much as lying by words to fibbing as to what we would call pretense, deception, and false claims. The emphasis of Jesus is quite clear.
Lucifer was and is the originator of all blasphemy and deception in the universe of spirit, which God has created, to the point that which all those who practice deception and who commit the ultimate blasphemy are merely reproducing Lucifer's appetites for falsehood and blasphemy in some mysterious way. They all share in and augment Lucifer's falsehood and blasphemy. You belong to your father, Satan.
That's very good. Very good.
So, in essence, we are kind of just like the the echoes that you know, if you follow the good path, then you are echoing our you're reaffirming our humanness by echoing and mirroring Christ. And if you do the opposite, then you are embracing the evil, right?
Yeah, that yeah, that makes sense. Well, I spent my morning at the gun range, so I don't know what's what this says about me.
Hey, that's you say gunnery, that's a good place to be, my man. Yeah, right up my alley.
Yep, yep. We were at the we're at shooting off some rounds at the range this morning. That's how I spent my morning preparing for today. So I don't know what that says about me.
Well, I was also watching anime, so it's not like it was all pure and holy things.
Well, you can you can say, Chris, that you spent your morning getting prepared for spiritual warfare, so that's why you went to the armory, right?
Yeah, that's the good way of putting it.
If uh if uh you don't mind, I want to echo real quickly on what JJ's brought, and sure, sure it can it can shorten everything up real quickly, but when when the rubber meets the road, as we say in the south, each and every one of us is in a spiritual battle, whether we realize it or not. Would you agree with that, JJ?
Yes, we are at a point every day that we are held accountable and we have a choice, and I and I may be wrong, but I I think this is why we we wanted to address the subject of free will is to make it understandable that when it comes down to it, guys, we really don't have a choice but to choose one or the other. That's our free will. Our free will is to make a choice. And each day, each morning that we wake up and before we go to bed and sleep, we are surrounded by such a great warfare, a spiritual warfare for the soul of man. Well, I can't see it taking place.
You know, you know, things of the spirit, you're not always gonna see it happening. It may, the things of the spirit in this warfare may flesh out in your mind or your will or your emotions. And JJ, I tell you, in my case, things have fleshed out in my physical body, but doggone it, there's a war going on for the soul of man, whether we want to acknowledge it, whether we want to receive it, or even if we want to believe it.
And what JJ just read is so important because we not only have a chance to respond on a more worldly, broader base, but we also have to make a decision that's very small, but greater than any other decision in our own life. Am I going to? Well, let's just let's just cut it down to what it really is. Satan came to kill, steal, and destroy, right? That's what the scripture says. And we also know that if he can't destroy you, he will try to deceive you. If he can't deceive you, he's gonna try to distract you.
And that number three is probably, if I had to say so, it's probably the number one spot in America today to distract that little bitty seed or that or that little fox that the Song of Solomon brings up when he says it's the little foxes that spoil the vine, it only takes one, and if that one that is not making a decision, Chris, my not making a decision, because I really can't understand it, that's how innocent this is, but it is through my actions that affect the fruit, and the fruit, the fruit of our life is going to affect the kingdom.
And that is something that I would dare say, Chris, that you know, we don't even want to think about it that way. How can how can I just one person affect the kingdom of God? Well, the answer would be Genesis, that God created me in his own image to be like him. And so, yes, God gives us free will to love him because of that free will that we're giving and the love that we're getting. He is glorified and he and he loves it and he gives back gifts. Another reason of that is is me and my free will choosing to obey God because when I obey God, you know, do you guys remember the opening prayer?
It is through that obeying God and submitting myself unto Him that I can pray that prayer with the assurance that is going to be guarded and protected. The free will of man, so to speak, is nothing more than making a choice to be in covenant with God and with one another. So, anyway, I'm getting started, but anyway, JJ, Chris, Josh, y'all got it.
Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.com, which offers links to all of our social media and episodes. Southern Demonology is only only produced and edited by myself. And the intro and community are completely by me as well. If you have a moment, please wait, like, and share this podcast. As this is the best way to help support my work. As always, I am DJ, and it has been a pleasure to speak to you today.