Demonology 203

Speaker 20:12

Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, tales, <span data-t="21.

9">and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, then sit back, relax, and welcome to <span data-t="30.

7">Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more. Hello, all, and welcome back to another <span data-t="42.

2">episode of Southern Demonology. This time a joint release with my wonderful friends, or not so wonderful, <span data-t="49.

7">depending upon the day, of uh the wandering road folks of Chris and Dean. I love to have <span data-t="55.

7">you guys here. Thank you all for having. And today we are going to be talking about a <span data-t="62.

0">rather spicy topic, which can be considered an extension of our demonology series that we've been carrying on <span data-t="70.

8">about for the past year or so. And that would be demonic gateways, or specifically what is demonic <span data-t="78.

7">and what is not, because this is I think for as long as there's ever going to be <span data-t="84.

8">religion, this is going to be a prevalent topic, and it's going to be a fun time to discuss.

How are you? How are you gents doing today?

Speaker 31:34

Not too bad. Not too bad. Just a little tired. Uh the weather has been so up and <span data-t="100.

9">down where I'm at. Like literally, it was in the mid-70s and then it dropped to like 29 <span data-t="108.

0">and it started snowing. And we had like two, three inches of snow, and I felt like crap <span data-t="114.

3">for the most of the week.

Speaker 21:55

Yeah, same thing here. We got an inch of snow, and now it's back in the 50s <span data-t="121.

4">or 60s or whatever the hell it is. There's actually, according to old southern folklore, there are <span data-t="127.

9">five seasonal shifts, and each, especially coming from winter into spring, each one of those is named <span data-t="135.

9">for the type of flower or fruit which is known to bloom during that particular time. So one <span data-t="143.

0">of them will be blackberry, etc. And that was apparently so boring that everyone went silent. So <span data-t="150.

8">I don't blame you. So, Mr. Chris, would you like to kick us off?

Speaker 32:35

Yeah, I would actually, because I kind of bitched about this to you um a little earlier <span data-t="161.

6">today, when I knew we were gonna be talking about this specific topic. One thing that gets on <span data-t="168.

2">my nerves, and I don't care who gets mad at it, is not everything is demonic. Just because <span data-t="175.

4">it has Demon in the title, Demon Slayer, K pop Demon Hunters, does not mean it's flipping demonic.

Pull your head out of your ass and get a clear understanding that that's not the case. <span data-t="191.

0">Just because it has that in the title doesn't mean it's gonna conjure anything. Take a second, <span data-t="196.

2">take a step back, like we say in the corporate world, in the IT world, let's let's take <span data-t="201.

4">a high-level look at this. Like let's take a step back and look at this from a high level.

50,000 foot view. A 50,000 foot view. Let's not try to boil the ocean, people. That strategic. <span data-t="215.

0">Let's be strategic about this, right? Let's use our synergy to No, but on a serious note, it's <span data-t="222.

7">so frustrating because like I'm sitting here watching Demon Slayer. If you pay attention to the title, <span data-t="230.

4">what the hell do you think Demon Slayer is about? Just take one guess. I've seen it, so <span data-t="235.

7">I I wouldn't. If you Dean, uh you probably never watched it, Dean. If you saw something titled <span data-t="241.

6">Demon Slayer, what do you think that show or that comic is going to be about? I mean, <span data-t="246.

8">if if I knew the title gives it away.

Speaker 14:09

Yeah. I mean, so like it's like um what's that one like Death Note where I would <span data-t="254.

3">think of like something like Death Note where there's like beasts and creatures and there's a hero <span data-t="258.

7">and he's trying to like slay, you know, take care of them. Exactly.

Speaker 34:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Slaying demons. Demon hunters. Do you think it's demons hunting people or the other <span data-t="269.

3">way around? Oh, yeah. I don't know. Oh, I see. People fucking hunting demons. I'm sorry, dude. <span data-t="274.

6">Like, I'm just gonna end up ranting on this because I'm so exposed to people like this <span data-t="279.

8">throughout my entire life that it's so frustrating. Any creative outlet, if you draw something or you <span data-t="286.

6">write about something that is inherently unique or different and it makes them uncomfortable, they automatically label <span data-t="295.

0">it as demonic. And it's so dumb. It's so dumb. I'm sorry, it's dumb. Like my rant now <span data-t="301.

6">and just like hand it over to you guys.

Speaker 15:03

So people people think I wasn't picking up on that in the beginning when you were asking me.

So you're saying that there are people who think that K-pop demon hunters or demon slayers or <span data-t="312.

6">whatever, they they think that it's from the perspective of the other way around where like the <span data-t="317.

7">the main character is the demon and they're hunting, like they're the evil entities that are, or <span data-t="323.

2">you're saying that like just the fact that the demons are in the show, it's like a negative <span data-t="328.

2">thing.

Speaker 25:28

Yeah, anything that even remotely smacks of the infernal, whether it has demon in the name or <span data-t="338.

6">has, as Chris was saying, weird creatures in it, people automatically get something hairy up their butts <span data-t="347.

1">and will just go off about it. And I I mean, I'm a prime example of this. I've <span data-t="352.

7">suffered from this stigma almost my entire life. I loved drawing when I grew up. And as anyone <span data-t="361.

8">who's listened to the show knows, I grew up in the belt buckle of the Bible belt, and <span data-t="367.

9">I love drawing monsters. In fact, I had a whole creation of them which numbered, I think at <span data-t="374.

8">the end, like over 150 different types called hide-behinds. And they had big horns on their head <span data-t="381.

3">and horns coming out their mouth, and people, when they saw this, thought that, oh my god, this <span data-t="387.

8">child is touched by the demonic. And I even like drew a comic. Oh my god. The and <span data-t="399.

5">the Bible belt book. Oh my god. Yeah, the principal came back and actually complained to my mom <span data-t="405.

5">and said, We can't have this because it's giving the young kids nightmares and even though it <span data-t="411.

4">was nothing that would ever do anything like that. It was ridiculous.

Speaker 16:56

Wow. I I mean, what is like what's the closest like did you ever have anyone come <span data-t="421.

4">up to you and say, like, oh, we need to have a serious talk about this because it's <span data-t="425.

5">you're getting too close to the devil demonic side, or like what was your what was your <span data-t="430.

6">craziest experience? Like someone talked, like pull off the side, talk to you about it.

Speaker 27:14

Well, the one the one that really shook me to my core. So when I was in <span data-t="439.

8">eighth grade, I began playing Dungeons and Dragons. And this was anything from first edition to second edition.

And my mom actually sat me down and was alternately cursing me and crying, saying that it's <span data-t="457.

2">you know, DD is nothing but the devil, and I could go to hell, and I was endangering <span data-t="464.

0">my soul. And she's the most like irreligious person I know. There's no church, there's no nothing, <span data-t="470.

9">but yet interesting. She was so consumed by all the news media and all the satanic panic that <span data-t="479.

7">was, of course, evident during those times, because I'm an old fart, that she really thought that <span data-t="485.

4">I was endangering my ever-living soul. So, yeah, that that shook me. Did you guys stop? No.

Speaker 18:13

No, of course not. No, because it's fun. There's there's okay, there's a movie. I'm sure everyone, <span data-t="499.

7">like most people listening, are gonna know what I'm talking about immediately. But if you haven't seen <span data-t="503.

0">it, watch this older movie called Detroit Rock City. And uh, I can't remember the you know I'm <span data-t="508.

0">talking about the okay, I don't remember maybe uh JJ, you probably know or remember more about it.

I can't remember the band they were obsessed with. I think it was Kiss. And uh it's <span data-t="517.

2">about these young boys growing up in Detroit, and uh they were so infatuated, like to rock out <span data-t="522.

2">they they really love KISS, and the mom was always like, It's the devil, like it's it's evil, <span data-t="527.

0">it's evil music, or whatever. That just reminds me like the same similar story. Such a great movie.

Speaker 28:52

It is, but yeah, I mean me, I I know that we've touched upon satanic panic in <span data-t="537.

9">the past, and I'm not looking to retread a whole bunch of uh well-explored pathways, but yeah. <span data-t="544.

9">Yeah, DD was definitely in the in the limelight for that one. And even as a kid, like <span data-t="551.

2">if my relatives ever wanted to know, you know, what they should get me for a birthday or <span data-t="558.

1">Christmas, my mom would simply say, find the ugliest monster that you can find in the store and <span data-t="564.

4">buy that. And that was ideally what I loved the most. Well, that's kind of nice that you <span data-t="570.

1">still like went along with it.

Speaker 19:31

That's cool.

Speaker 29:32

As long as it wasn't DD, she didn't particularly care. So that's interesting. But the ironic part <span data-t="579.

2">about that is you know, there was this major group called Mad, Mothers Against Dungeons and Dragons, <span data-t="586.

3">and they spread nationally, and they're the ones that were saying that DD was corrupting and was <span data-t="594.

0">a satanic influence, etc. etc. Now, don't get me wrong, TSR at the time, the company that <span data-t="600.

6">controlled DD, they did produce books which liberally used religious themes. So some of this came down <span data-t="609.

4">on their heads for the lack of PR savvy, in which they had. But the funny thing is <span data-t="615.

4">that MAD became so well known that it actually drove people to try and hear about DD than <span data-t="623.

8">it ever did from detracting from it. And that's one of the main reasons why when you think <span data-t="629.

9">TTRPG, the first thing that comes to mind usually is Dungeons and Dragons.

Speaker 310:34

Yeah, JJ, I know we kind of had like a path we wanted to follow, and I kind <span data-t="639.

4">of want to stick to that as well, you know, talking about trying to identify like what is <span data-t="645.

0">scary as opposed to like, you know, what can actually be a gateway to the demonic. But one <span data-t="651.

0">thing I wanted to chime in with is, and I wanted both your perspectives on this, isn't it <span data-t="656.

1">kind of like this type of reaction to I would say any type of creativity is I view <span data-t="662.

4">it as anti-creative and anti-intellectual because just because, for example, if I draw like a minotaur, a <span data-t="670.

5">hero killing a minotaur or something like that, or something of the equivalent from Greek mythology or <span data-t="676.

3">something, or I create like you, JJ, you created your own type of monsters. It's it's creativity. <span data-t="683.

6">We like to explore things that we don't understand. We like to explore things that we don't know.

Sometimes is it to your own detriment, potentially, like if you go messing with the Ouija board <span data-t="696.

1">or tarot cards and you don't have the proper intentions and don't know what you're doing?

Speaker 111:40

Yeah.

Speaker 311:40

Yeah, using those type of tools can potentially welcome in something that you can't get rid of <span data-t="705.

8">or open up a gateway. But from that perspective, I just view all of this type of behavior <span data-t="711.

5">and all of these type of reactions as you do not have a single creative bone in your <span data-t="716.

3">body because you can't sit there for five seconds and try to understand what the art or game <span data-t="724.

1">or whatever is trying to convey. It's not that difficult. I hate when people like to use things <span data-t="731.

0">as a shield for ignorance. And it and it does such a disservice for people that actually deal <span data-t="738.

1">with this stuff. I mean, for you, JJ, you do consultations for people that reach out to you <span data-t="743.

6">that think they are afflicted by this stuff. And what would how would you react if you had <span data-t="748.

7">someone set up a consultation with you and you get in that room or call with them and <span data-t="753.

6">they're like, Well, my kid started watching K-pop Demon Hunter, and now we think we're being attacked <span data-t="759.

2">by demons? Like, you would probably just immediately leave that call.

Speaker 212:42

Because it's I would I would first try to explain, but and I've ran into this with <span data-t="771.

5">certain members of congregations where their worldview is so narrow that they think that almost all TV <span data-t="782.

8">is inherently evil because they have the audacity to show a gay person. The narrow-mindedness is so <span data-t="791.

7">terrifying to witness and behold in these situations that you know it's a lost cause. Like I <span data-t="799.

6">could talk till I'm blue in the face, and no one would ever pay attention to what I'm <span data-t="805.

1">saying because I am automatically in the wrong.

Speaker 313:28

Right. Yeah. And I think I I come from like the reason I'm coming in so hot <span data-t="814.

1">on this topic, it's because you've been doing Southern Demonology for what, almost a decade. Dean and <span data-t="821.

8">I have been doing uh TWR for three and a half years. And what we're trying to do <span data-t="827.

9">is to provide an outlet for people to one, share their stories, and two, you know, provide <span data-t="833.

4">people with at least some type of educated guesses and information of what this stuff could potentially be.

And when people behave in that manner, it does such a disservice to anybody involved in this <span data-t="847.

9">type of community. And it's just frustrating because you automatically get lumped into that.

Speaker 214:13

It is, but there are certain individuals who only see the world in black and white, and <span data-t="862.

2">there's never any gray whatsoever. And it's those, in fact, there's a a psychological phenomenon which simply <span data-t="871.

0">says, you know, the more you don't know, the the more impossible it becomes for you to realize <span data-t="879.

3">how much you don't know. And if you apply that more liberally, and uh I think that this <span data-t="886.

1">type of black and white worldview ultimately becomes a huge disservice to the individuals in which have it.

Speaker 114:53

But I think that goes to the the broader question about the nature of existence, and it's <span data-t="898.

8">like, what what do you believe existence that as a human is more about? Is it more about <span data-t="903.

7">the severity of life and the seriousness of it and the gravity of the pain and suffering that <span data-t="908.

7">you have to kind of traverse and and um deflect through seeking out religious freedom or like <span data-t="915.

2">or something or touching the divine rather? Or is it more about, like you said, JG, like <span data-t="920.

6">broadening your perspective and understanding that people are not as different and the kindness side of it <span data-t="926.

6">and the thing that I jump off into going back into like the like you said, Chris, the <span data-t="932.

0">creativity and all that stuff, the stuff that's put out there. I think it's interesting that if <span data-t="936.

4">you were to put like a biblical, like for someone who is like real uh narrow-minded, if you <span data-t="940.

8">were to put the biblical perspective on it, say, oh, it was Jesus fighting the demons in a <span data-t="945.

2">show, or even if it's like, you know, like, oh, the person fighting the demons is religiously <span data-t="950.

0">sanctioned by by God or Jesus and like that's what they're doing. But even if you take that <span data-t="954.

5">away, it's kind of silly, right? Because like in these shows, or even in DD or whatever, you're <span data-t="959.

4">fighting evil spirits, like you're fighting evil monsters or entities or whatever. And that kind of seems <span data-t="964.

8">like a positive, right? Like, like if you if you have people who are doing stuff in these <span data-t="969.

9">shows or or content who are trying to suppress or defeat evil spirits or demons, like that <span data-t="975.

8">seems like it should be a positive, good thing for for someone who believes that narrow-mindedness. But <span data-t="981.

6">but like you guys said, just because just because it it's a media thing, that you know, <span data-t="985.

8">mainstream, it becomes negative. So I that's just that's where my brain goes with this.

Speaker 216:30

There is a you know, there's a practical side to this as well. So, you know, as <span data-t="997.

8">Chris alluded to, I do hold consultations for people that think that they are besieged by something. <span data-t="1007.

8">And one of the first questions that always comes up is is this demonic? And I have <span data-t="1014.

8">a set of criteria which helps to at least point in the right direction. I'm not gonna <span data-t="1021.

3">I can't say that yes, it absolutely is, no, it absolutely is not, but it at least <span data-t="1027.

5">provides a lot of you know pretty solid ground for how to continue on that front. And <span data-t="1034.

3">luckily, I haven't encountered people that have said, oh, you know, my my kid watched this, you <span data-t="1041.

0">know, this cartoon show and suddenly they're besieged by the devil. It's never been anything so ridiculous <span data-t="1049.

1">as that. But it's you know, if if someone has serious things going on in their house <span data-t="1056.

3">or something that's following them, I'm not going to give specifics because I don't ever want to <span data-t="1061.

4">intrude upon anyone's privacy to that extent, because whatever is said is said in confidence. But, you <span data-t="1068.

6">know, that is a practical distinction. But going beyond that, just trying to assure other people out <span data-t="1078.

2">there that even though you may think something is demonic, you have to look at criteria. And <span data-t="1085.

4">if you don't, then you're kind of you're giving the infernal a hell of a lot more <span data-t="1090.

3">credit than what they are due. And in the end, that is more dangerous than never assuming <span data-t="1097.

9">that something is demonic.

Speaker 318:19

So, JJ, let's jump right into this then. So let me ask you, what is some sort <span data-t="1104.

0">of how could you recognize it's demonic? What are some telltale signs as opposed to something, you <span data-t="1110.

9">know, that's like you wouldn't consider it to be the case?

Speaker 218:33

So if it's simple bumps in the night, that's probably not going to be demonic. Some of <span data-t="1120.

0">the things that really kind of tell that something has gone well beyond even the paranormal pale <span data-t="1128.

2">is does it inspire dread? If it does that, then you know it it doesn't necessarily mean <span data-t="1136.

0">but it's a pretty good indication that you're dealing with something a lot darker than your <span data-t="1141.

2">run-of-the-mill haunting. Does it react to religious artifacts? If it does, then that is an excellent sign <span data-t="1149.

9">that you're dealing with something more than a ghost. Those are two of the primary things that <span data-t="1157.

2">I look at. And one of the others is does it follow? So if you move domiciles <span data-t="1165.

7">and the same thing happens, that could be a sign that it is a demonic or infernal <span data-t="1171.

8">entity rather than a simple haunting. Or does it happen outside of the home? If you're going <span data-t="1178.

0">to work, do you still feel something? Is it bothering you? That is a good indication. Does <span data-t="1183.

8">that make sense to y'all?

Speaker 119:45

Yeah, absolutely. I guess a follow-up question to that would be like uh switching back over <span data-t="1189.

8">to the people who are concerned about the media and the shows that that maybe like child <span data-t="1194.

3">their children are consuming or something like that. What I mean that see, this is the thing <span data-t="1200.

2">that's really difficult. So it I feel like if you have an attraction from the demonic, and <span data-t="1205.

9">maybe even if it's like not pre-existing yet, like in the sense that it is making itself <span data-t="1210.

6">known to the point where it's a problem, but then it coincides with people who are um <span data-t="1216.

0">are are starting to have children or something that are creeping into these shows, and then they're <span data-t="1220.

4">starting to experience more of this uh, you know, these demonic, these potentially demonic experiences. How <span data-t="1226.

0">would you respond to somebody dealing with that? And and the reason I bring up that question <span data-t="1230.

2">is because it seems like there could be any vector. Um and like like for instance, a <span data-t="1235.

8">doll, right? Like a doll that is seemingly benign that should have no original, like if you <span data-t="1242.

1">were to guess that, oh, there's nothing demonic about this toy or this doll or something like <span data-t="1246.

0">that, but things start attaching to it or people are suspecting there's an attachment, how would you <span data-t="1251.

5">respond to somebody where it's coinciding with like like a show or something like that, or where <span data-t="1256.

1">things are starting to happen more? Would you just say that it has nothing to do with <span data-t="1259.

8">it whatsoever, or or would you maybe suggest, like, oh, you're, you know, maybe the infatuation that <span data-t="1265.

0">somebody has with the demonic as they're watching these shows, could that be a potential vector? Because <span data-t="1270.

3">it's kind of it's a it's not the show itself, it's them aligning their awareness and kind <span data-t="1275.

1">of negative like drawing the negativity to them because they're so infatuated with the minutia of the <span data-t="1281.

5">demonic or the idea of the demonic in in like a show or or a content or <span data-t="1285.

4">something like that.

Speaker 221:26

I mean it's a that is a fantastic question because I have had an interview with a <span data-t="1294.

2">individual who became very interested in sort of darker things because of Indiana Jones, believe it or <span data-t="1307.

3">not, Kali Ma. And that kind of I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you <span data-t="1311.

5">were gonna say that.

Speaker 321:52

It's an interesting thing, it's such a bad representation of it, too.

Speaker 221:56

Of course it is. I mean, it has very little to nothing to do. With the actual <span data-t="1321.

3">thing, but that's Hollywood for you. I mean, it over exaggerates everything. But um, I mean, but <span data-t="1328.

4">that is a a really good point that it is that interest which can draw you in. <span data-t="1336.

6">And the more you give into that, then it can become a potential vector. As we said, <span data-t="1345.

1">you know, there are you know three different, at least three different stages to uh demonic possession. <span data-t="1352.

5">And then it first starts off with obsession, and that's just a purely mental thing. But the <span data-t="1358.

9">less your spiritual house is in order, the more openings that you were giving to the infernal <span data-t="1368.

2">to come into your life. And if you're highly like if you started watching evil, for example, <span data-t="1375.

1">and you became truly interested in demonic sigals and began researching them and you know seeing how <span data-t="1382.

1">valid they may be, etc., that could well very well become a vector. But it is that <span data-t="1389.

5">interest alone is not going to expose you. Now, if you're doing a ton of other bad <span data-t="1396.

9">stuff in your life and you combine that with this infatuation, maybe, or let's say that you <span data-t="1403.

0">start associating with an individual who absolutely does not have their shit in order, then yeah, you <span data-t="1409.

9">could be opening yourself via another individual. I can always rely upon the um the business shorthand <span data-t="1419.

3">of emails of thoughts.

Speaker 123:41

I feel like I'm talking too much.

Speaker 323:42

So I'm leaving some room for Chris to So, based off of that example that you just <span data-t="1427.

9">gave JJ, well, not example, but kind of like that point you just made. So where would <span data-t="1434.

0">we draw the line between being open to it and reckless experimentation, we should say. Like For <span data-t="1440.

7">example, I love horror movies. We all love horror movies here. I Dean, I don't know if <span data-t="1444.

9">you like horror movies. Do you? Yeah. I had never asked you this directly.

Speaker 124:08

Used to watch them all the time, and the only reason I kind of drew back is <span data-t="1452.

2">just because I've been so busy. I haven't even been watching any movies really. But yeah, I <span data-t="1455.

5">like horror movies.

Speaker 224:16

Plus, you have little kids too, so it's like you can't really you have to wait strategically.

Yeah. I was about to say, if you don't like horror movies, get on out because <span data-t="1468.

2">we don't need your condo out here.

Speaker 124:30

No, man. I I let me tell you something. So like I watched horror movies so much, <span data-t="1475.

4">even from a young age, like I love all going all the way back to Tales from <span data-t="1478.

6">the Crypt when um I would lay on the floor and my you know my parents would <span data-t="1481.

8">watch it or something, and um I was told to like look away at the scariest parts, <span data-t="1485.

4">but I would still peek or you know, I would go out to the movie uh rental <span data-t="1488.

8">place with my best friend and sleepovers, we'd always rent at least one horror movie. And um, <span data-t="1493.

4">I'll tell you one that like messed me up was Dr. Giggles. Uh that is a super <span data-t="1498.

2">old, corny, cheesy horror movie. But when you're a kid, you don't really understand like cheesy corny <span data-t="1504.

4">yet. So the one thing that messed me up from that movie, Dr. Giggles, was when this <span data-t="1508.

2">guy was standing next to a door and uh Dr. Giggles, the evil demonic doctor, stuck a <span data-t="1513.

9">needle through a keyhole and injected this guy with something, and then he just started bleeding from <span data-t="1519.

8">the eyes, the ears, the mouth, the nose, like just completely, and he just died. And I <span data-t="1525.

5">thought for so many years after that that it was possible that you could be injected with <span data-t="1529.

5">something that would cause that to happen. Of course, it's there's no such thing, but yeah, just <span data-t="1534.

4">just going back to the whole comment about Hollywood like just completely running with something crazy. <span data-t="1539.

5">And but yeah, that's just my little horror movie side story from from you.

Speaker 225:43

No, that's a great point. Because uh, I remember the very first horror movie I ever <span data-t="1548.

2">saw, we saw in theaters, and it was Monster in the Closet. Have y'all ever been across <span data-t="1555.

4">this gym? Yes. I got and of course, I mean it is the most, you know, horror <span data-t="1562.

2">comedy kind of thing that could ever be devised. But six-year-old me had no idea what corny <span data-t="1569.

8">or cheesy or horror comedy ever would, and it scared the absolute bejesus out of me. God, <span data-t="1576.

9">but I loved it and I kept coming back to horror every single time I could, and <span data-t="1581.

8">that persisted all the way up to today.

Speaker 126:25

Kind of reminds me of Gremlins. Remember, like Gremlins was supposed to be like they started <span data-t="1589.

7">out making Gremlins as a horror, and then if you go back and you watch the interviews <span data-t="1594.

6">of the people who were directing it or whatever, putting the movie together, they're like, This is <span data-t="1599.

0">this is a comedy. Like, this is and then they just really ran with the comedy aspect. <span data-t="1603.

8">And so, like, if you're watching it as a kid, of course it's gonna terrible, you're not <span data-t="1606.

7">gonna pick up on the comedy, but then you watch it again as an adult, and you're <span data-t="1609.

5">like, wow, this is really funny.

Speaker 226:51

Actually, at that point, I I saw Gremlins in theaters. Yes, I am that old.

Speaker 326:55

And grief.

Speaker 226:57

And I even as a kid, I knew that was comedy. Yeah. There's a couple of scenes <span data-t="1624.

0">in there, it was a little rough, but it was it was a good time. And of <span data-t="1627.

5">course, Gremlins 2 took the comedy thing to the absolutely inane extreme.

Speaker 327:14

Jack Frost Little Monsters was my favorite. Oh, yeah, Little Monsters in the 80s. Little Monsters. <span data-t="1641.

3">Y'all ever seen that? The Nick the Nickelodeon show? Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. It was <span data-t="1646.

2">an actual movie. Howie Mandel was like the monster under the bed, and he had he was blue.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, and there was like that big other one that they had to like <span data-t="1655.

4">kill with the flashlights apparently, or like UV lights or something. Yeah, I enjoyed that one.

Speaker 227:42

I like mon I like Monster Squad, who was a good one. I don't think I think <span data-t="1667.

3">Fred Savage when he was a little kid. Yep.

Speaker 327:50

But um but back to what I was the point I was making or the question I <span data-t="1674.

8">was asking you, JJ, it's like, where do we draw the line here? Because someone that loves <span data-t="1680.

0">horror movies and always like me, I love horror movies, but I have a specific subcategory that <span data-t="1686.

7">I enjoy watching, which is demonic possession. And the reason for that is because of The Exorcist. <span data-t="1692.

9">That was the first horror movie I watched as a kid. Watched it on VHS, scared the <span data-t="1697.

0">ever living hell out of me. That's a high bar you set for yourself there, but yeah, <span data-t="1701.

4">it's it I've always been chasing that high ever since, and nothing, no other movie has ever <span data-t="1706.

6">done it for me. Thankfully, last year I got was it last year? Yeah, last year I <span data-t="1710.

6">got to meet Linda Blair, which was freaking awesome.

Speaker 228:33

But I was so jealous seeing that photo. But have you seen the Exorcist diversion you've <span data-t="1721.

0">never seen? That's actually the official tagline of it. Yeah, I have the VHS of it. Okay. <span data-t="1726.

2">Yeah, that I remember watching that in college, and oh, it was so good.

Speaker 328:50

Yeah, but but my question is like for someone like me that enjoys that stuff, like I've <span data-t="1736.

4">always watched that. I prefer to watch movies involving demonic possession, probably because of the exorcist <span data-t="1743.

0">and it was done so well. Does that quote unquote open me up, you know, like puts <span data-t="1748.

6">me in the danger zone to attract this stuff to me? Or can we use some like <span data-t="1753.

7">where can we draw the line there?

Speaker 229:15

Common sense is where you can draw the line. Thank you. I would put it this way. <span data-t="1761.

9">You know, if like for example, I'm interested in not only demonic possession films, but zombie movies <span data-t="1770.

0">and supernatural films. I don't really care for slashers or torture porn or things along those lines. <span data-t="1776.

1">If you keep your interest at interest, no problem. Like it's not going to affect your life <span data-t="1783.

3">at all. Now, if it's to the point where you begin trying to go to occult bookstores <span data-t="1790.

1">or attempt Ouija boards to contact the demonic, if you take that interest and turn it into <span data-t="1796.

8">actualization, then you are stepping over a line which you really should not ever cross. If you <span data-t="1804.

1">start trying out magic and you know exposing yourself to even more potential vectors for danger, that <span data-t="1811.

7">is a really horrendously bad idea. As long as it stays at interest, no problem. If that <span data-t="1818.

9">interest begins to affect your life, problem. And of course, there's a lot of gray area in that.

You know, there's there's no way it can be as simple as that. But if you lead <span data-t="1836.

9">a disorderly and chaotic life, if you invite chaos into your life and you allow your interests <span data-t="1844.

3">to then dictate your actions, that's when bad things can happen.

Speaker 130:49

I think another perspective too, there is um you can't I feel like you can't have these <span data-t="1853.

3">conversations without introducing the things we've talked about in the past, like psychological nature of of <span data-t="1858.

6">humans, where um and and not to rehash the same thing we talked about before, but just <span data-t="1863.

4">to kind of topically bring it up again, people who are predisposed to having a psychological issue <span data-t="1868.

2">that's hardwired into their brain or something like that. I feel like I'll I'll actually I'll pose <span data-t="1872.

3">this as a question. So, do you guys think that people who have that nature about them <span data-t="1877.

9">where they might become obsessive just due to the fact of the nature of their psychological state, <span data-t="1883.

2">they should be extra cautious? Like, let's say you have somebody who has uh a diagnosed psychological <span data-t="1888.

3">issue, but they also like horror movies. Do you think that that could make them more likely <span data-t="1892.

9">to fall down that rabbit hole and maybe attract something? And and and I guess a second <span data-t="1897.

8">part to that is like people who have predisposed psychological issues or or challenges, do they become <span data-t="1903.

2">easier targets for this sort of thing, especially when they open up vectors like media or content <span data-t="1907.

7">that might be including concepts of demonic, or is it kind of like everybody across the board <span data-t="1913.

4">has an equal chance of attracting this sort of thing if they're not careful?

Speaker 331:56

I think and I'm just speaking for myself because I'm the type of individual that tends <span data-t="1922.

1">to hyper focus on things that grab my interest. And if I like it, I like hyper <span data-t="1926.

6">focus on it for for weeks. That's how I finish like TV shows within a span of <span data-t="1931.

3">like, I don't know, a week and a half. Where whereas it takes others like three years. <span data-t="1936.

7">But I think from that perspective, just speaking for myself, if you tend to hyperfocus on certain <span data-t="1942.

7">things and you draw yourself, you find yourself drawn to one of those things, and you just <span data-t="1947.

9">go in a deep dive into it, it depending on what you do, it could lead to some <span data-t="1952.

9">negativity, I think. You can open yourself up because, like they say, curiosity killed the cat, right? <span data-t="1959.

4">It's one of those things where if you're not careful and you just go too deep into <span data-t="1963.

7">it, and you for you, it's like, okay, I think I'm doing this for research purposes, but <span data-t="1968.

6">if that research purpose turns into you're drawing a damn pentagram and sigils and stuff on the <span data-t="1974.

1">ground, obsession. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, to be honest, some people might do that <span data-t="1980.

9">just out of like bare curiosity because you know, people are like, you know what, this is bullshit.

So I'm gonna see if anything happens. There are people that that like Dave Chappelle says <span data-t="1991.

0">about Rick James, habitual line steppers, they they do it because that's just in their nature. It's <span data-t="1996.

9">like if I tell JJ, like, dude, don't do this because somebody's gonna come and like stab <span data-t="2003.

0">you in the neck, you're gonna be like bullshit. If you're that type of person, you'll be <span data-t="2006.

6">like, bullshit, prove it. Like I'm gonna do this right now. So I think it's again, it's <span data-t="2012.

2">not objective because everybody's different. If you tend to hyperfocus, yeah, maybe you could fall into <span data-t="2018.

2">that trap. And you're not really consciously trying to do anything wrong. So that that's just my <span data-t="2024.

2">perspective on that.

Speaker 233:45

I would agree, but bringing in particular mental disorders is an interesting part of the question. <span data-t="2033.

4">So let's say someone suffers from psychosis where they can hear voices or they see people which <span data-t="2041.

4">aren't really there. Like Dean. And there's no Dean on this call. What are you doing? No, <span data-t="2046.

6">I'm just talking to myself.

Speaker 334:07

I mean But I mean, that JJ, there is no podcast. You're just here talking. That would <span data-t="2054.

4">not be a good thing. That's like that's my greatest fear.

Speaker 134:16

That's my greatest fear. Like waking up and then just like not there's nothing like the <span data-t="2060.

4">last however many years is just you in a straight jacket. That's a true horror movie right there.

Speaker 234:27

Maxwell's demon. But um, no, I mean, but that could absolutely start to fuck with your <span data-t="2074.

2">head even more, you know, if you start watching demonic films and getting really, really into it, <span data-t="2080.

6">who knows what the heck the voices may begin to morph into.

Speaker 134:45

Yeah. Okay, real quick, here's an interesting thought. I'm not gonna I won't say like a <span data-t="2092.

1">I'll just give you, I'll let you guys decide if it's interesting. But um if this is logical.

So if a if demons uh whole uh shtick uh on humanity is to cause issues and <span data-t="2104.

9">problems that destabilize uh and this is you know, this is just talking from like maybe just <span data-t="2110.

9">let's just focus on Judeo-Christian or whatever, like you know, that perspective of religion and humanity. <span data-t="2116.

1">If if the demon's goal is to disrupt and bring down humans to a point where they <span data-t="2123.

0">just are so far away from having a chance of divinity or whatever, it seems to me <span data-t="2127.

4">like they would look at somebody who has a psychological issue who might become infatuated, and they <span data-t="2131.

4">just be like, this guy's already messing up his own life. This person's already doing my job <span data-t="2137.

0">for me. So maybe it's like less likely for them to actually experience something demonic because it's <span data-t="2142.

9">just too easy. Like, okay, I'm gonna move on to somebody else who I can actually wreck territory.

Speaker 235:47

Who knows? I mean, uh Malachi Martin did a pretty decent sample size of those who were <span data-t="2156.

0">affected by demonic influence, and there were no particular indications of socioeconomic status or anything else <span data-t="2168.

6">that pointed to you are more likely to become targeted by the demonic than not. So it <span data-t="2177.

3">honestly it's up to it's in I mean it it's up in the air. Who the hell knows? <span data-t="2183.

3">But the bane of worthy it is, but the more doors you go to open, the more <span data-t="2189.

6">risk you absolutely invite onto yourself.

Speaker 136:33

I I don't want to I don't want to derail, but I have to ask you, uh <span data-t="2196.

0">JJ, from from you don't maybe not you don't have to talk about your personal beliefs, but <span data-t="2199.

6">just from what you've studied and stuff like that. What would your guess best guess be about <span data-t="2203.

8">the purpose of humans from a religious perspective? Like if they're like divinity or whatever, like why <span data-t="2211.

1">do we exist? And the reason I bring this up is because I thought about this recently <span data-t="2215.

6">again, just last night, interestingly enough, and I not again didn't had no idea we were talking <span data-t="2220.

0">about this today, so it's really creepy that you know I thought about this again. But I <span data-t="2223.

8">was thinking, are humans kind of like looked upon from the divine side, you know, either demonic <span data-t="2230.

2">or or the good good side? Are we kind of like a test of the nature of God <span data-t="2235.

6">and evil where it's like, oh, we need like they're we're gonna we're gonna put them through <span data-t="2240.

0">the ringer and see what they choose, sort of thing? Or is there another answer to that <span data-t="2244.

6">where or another perspective where it's like people are just kind of going through life and we're <span data-t="2249.

7">just gonna see how they react, but there's no real challenge or there's no real answer to <span data-t="2255.

8">choice for them to to to come to like the the good side or the bad side? <span data-t="2260.

2">Because I feel like that is I know that's a really high-level question, but from what you've <span data-t="2265.

6">studied, like what is the purpose of the nature of humankind when it comes to choice of <span data-t="2271.

4">good and evil or or another perspective?

Speaker 237:53

Well, I mean, if you look at me, it is a very high-level question, but it's a <span data-t="2278.

6">good one. If you look, if you look at it from a Christian perspective, then it's because <span data-t="2286.

3">God loves us, and because God is existing at all times and all places, then there's no <span data-t="2295.

7">history, and it's just always omnipresent for God. So, you know, creation, it doesn't matter when creation <span data-t="2304.

1">happened, he knows what humanity is. And then if you look at the opposite side, it's that <span data-t="2311.

1">Satan or the devil or the infernal, whatever you want to call it, is here to corrupt <span data-t="2317.

6">and putrefy us before God in order to cause him pain. And if you look at Zoroastrianism, <span data-t="2326.

9">which we gathered a lot of stuff from, then Achura Mazda created humanity, but then Achriman, the <span data-t="2337.

5">the arch enemy, said that it will make your creatures hate you. So it's always that kind <span data-t="2345.

4">of core idea of corruption.

Speaker 139:08

Yeah. I think the reason why that gives me even more pause and fear is because it's <span data-t="2352.

9">like the best way to put it is like we're damned if we do, damned if we <span data-t="2355.

8">don't, in a sense, because it seems like when you go back to the concept of like <span data-t="2359.

6">the Garden of Eden, where we took a bite of the forbidden fruit and then we got <span data-t="2363.

4">the knowledge of good and evil. It almost seems to me, in a logical sense, that something <span data-t="2367.

8">that we consider evil, like Satan or or Hurmazda or whatever, like we are given the knowledge <span data-t="2373.

9">of the bad things that are out there that we otherwise shouldn't be aware of and we <span data-t="2379.

2">should just be there loving God. And then that goes in the same vein of people who <span data-t="2382.

9">are saying like Christians, ultra-Christian people who believe that our whole goal is to get to heaven <span data-t="2387.

8">and worship God for eternity at his feet. And um, that is a scary concept to me <span data-t="2392.

2">because if you introduce the concept that I and I know I'm gonna get this wrong, so <span data-t="2396.

6">Chris, please jump in with your history knowledge, but there were there's a religion, I don't can't <span data-t="2401.

4">remember if it's it's Greek or whatever, but whoever brought the fire for man was punished. Right <span data-t="2406.

8">and who was that? Prometheus, yeah. Prometheus in Greek mythology. And that that's similar, right? Because <span data-t="2412.

6">it's like we were given this knowledge of awareness of all depths up and down, or like <span data-t="2418.

8">you know, heights and depths of knowledge, and we weren't supposed to have that, but that also <span data-t="2423.

4">makes us who we are as individuals when we're going through this life. So it's almost like <span data-t="2428.

0">it seems like the answer, if you do subscribe to say Christianity in the in the in <span data-t="2433.

0">the uh the most like significant way, that you'd have to give that up. You'd have to <span data-t="2437.

5">give up that awareness and knowledge just to purely hold on to the good and closeness to <span data-t="2443.

4">a divine deity or God or something like that. So going back to the demonic, it's almost <span data-t="2449.

1">like us we're testing ourselves and our exposure to this sort of thing. But at the end, <span data-t="2454.

1">if we want to achieve this goodness with within the context of like Christianity or something, we <span data-t="2459.

4">would have to give all of that up. And then in that way, we wouldn't really be ourselves.

And so it's almost like there's a tearing of the self in order to reach out to <span data-t="2468.

6">the divine. And I'm I'm not and just to clarify, I'm not saying this is what the <span data-t="2472.

6">nature of reality is, this is just a perspective that is if you're applying logical progression within <span data-t="2478.

8">the context of of uh like Christianity or something, and that's that's that's the scariest part about <span data-t="2484.

4">what for me anyway.

Speaker 241:25

It's not I mean, yeah, because I mean if you look at a lot of these types <span data-t="2490.

6">of events, and it's not just Christianity, uh, it's also Judaism, even ancient Judaism, uh eating from <span data-t="2499.

2">the tree of knowledge. If you look at Enoch, it is the watchers coming down from heaven <span data-t="2505.

7">in order to teach humanity forbidden arts in addition to copulating with the daughters of man. And <span data-t="2515.

1">that kind of thing goes on. But it's not so much just knowledge in and of itself, <span data-t="2520.

2">it's knowledge of improper things, knowledge in which people should not have. Now, whether we shouldn't <span data-t="2528.

9">have it or not is entirely open to the question, because we tend to view knowledge as <span data-t="2535.

4">if you have it, it's a good thing. If you don't have it, it's a bad thing. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that we have oh, go ahead, Chris.

Speaker 342:24

But Dane, you brought up an interesting point, well, with the whole concept of exposure to <span data-t="2550.

2">knowledge and all that stuff. And what I was thinking, this kind of just came to mind. <span data-t="2554.

8">When you're born as a baby, don't you kind of go back into that state? Because you're <span data-t="2560.

2">not born with any knowledge. You're not born with anything. So you're kind of thrust into the world.

Yeah, in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Even if like you're exposed to certain things, you don't <span data-t="2573.

4">wholesale stick to them. And if you don't mind, I'll use you as an example, right? You <span data-t="2577.

9">you were born and you were in an environment where at one point you were deep into <span data-t="2583.

6">your faith. I remember when I first met you, that was the case. And then you kind <span data-t="2589.

3">of just through your own discernment, you just broke off on your own and started asking questions <span data-t="2594.

1">and started doing this and different things, you know. Um that's you know, that just quickly came <span data-t="2600.

4">to mind.

Speaker 243:21

Like it's funny that you just jumped like 400 years in philosophy right there. Because I <span data-t="2607.

5">mean, that was a major open question during the Middle Ages from Descartes onward. Are people tabla <span data-t="2616.

1">rasa, blank slates, or are we built? We are we born with certain innate knowledge, whether that's <span data-t="2623.

5">a priori or a posteriori in how we are shaped and then view the world?

Speaker 343:49

Yeah, because I actually was literally talking about this with Willie maybe like a week ago. <span data-t="2635.

0">He asked me this question of do you think people are born inherently? Good or inherently evil. <span data-t="2642.

0">And I think it's, and my argument was it's it's objective that everyone's born with a blank <span data-t="2647.

5">slate, and then you become the product of your environment. And there are rare instances in which <span data-t="2654.

5">you don't become that, you become the opposite of it. So, JJ, you in another parallel world, <span data-t="2661.

0">you could have been like this, you know, like Bible Belt priest that hates dungeons and dragons <span data-t="2667.

9">and all this other stuff, you know, as opposed to the way that you are now.

Speaker 144:32

So J I want to revisit what Chris said about because I feel like you zooming to <span data-t="2678.

7">fanboys. I want to deep dive on uh a whole episode of that. But we should do <span data-t="2682.

9">a we should do a whole episode of like human proclivities that just shape, you know, like <span data-t="2687.

8">I think that would be a dark episode. You'd probably have to cut the whole thing.

Speaker 244:50

It actually would be because I I mean I I see like especially for Japanese SNS, there <span data-t="2697.

5">are so many people that are obsessed by Japanese women who have armpit hair, or yes, you <span data-t="2705.

4">know, or people that are just obsessed with feet. I don't get it. I I'm like, what <span data-t="2710.

3">the fuck? Anyway, but that would be a fun topic. Hooves. I do like hooves. Why do <span data-t="2717.

1">you think I like goats so much?

Speaker 145:23

Oh, you'll have so much editing to do. But indeed, your question got okay. I I wanna <span data-t="2728.

6">okay, switching back to the uh the topic of the demonic and and uh inviting that sort <span data-t="2733.

0">of thing in, I want to share this because I feel like it's really it's kind of <span data-t="2737.

0">rare in this life to have somebody experiencing and willing to talk about a transition from maybe <span data-t="2743.

6">benign religion exposure, you know, where you grow up Christian, but you kind of don't really get it.

And then you really dive into it and you really go deep into it and and you <span data-t="2753.

4">you completely take it in as your life, and then you come out of it again. Um, <span data-t="2757.

3">and the reason I want to talk about this really briefly is to give the perspective of <span data-t="2761.

4">how I felt at the time. And because I remember very vividly how I felt was very <span data-t="2767.

0">wrong giving it up. It felt very dark and it was very frightening. Um, and I still <span data-t="2772.

0">actually, creepily enough, I still know exactly where I was on the campus that Chris and I <span data-t="2776.

2">went to together, where I kind of switched my brain in a different direction. And that moment <span data-t="2781.

4">is forever ingrained in my brain because it felt dark and sunny at the same time. And <span data-t="2787.

3">that was a very, very unique experience for me. But so I grew up Christian, I grew <span data-t="2791.

8">up Catholic, where my grandparents were ultra Catholic. That was the only answer, etc. And I went <span data-t="2797.

3">went to a lot of Catholic masses. And I even went myself when I first started driving. <span data-t="2801.

5">I would go to Catholic Mass by myself and I would, you know, go and I would <span data-t="2805.

3">just be there. And you know, my parents weren't really about going to church anymore. So I'm <span data-t="2808.

6">like, I'm gonna keep going. And then I kind of just slowly petered away from that a <span data-t="2813.

2">little bit. And then when I got to college, um, I revisited Christianity by going to um <span data-t="2820.

5">Bible studies and stuff like that. And I really got into um closely with a group of <span data-t="2825.

6">people who were very uh, I would say almost um like like the type of people who <span data-t="2831.

4">their entire lives are waking up, the Bible, Christian music, don't consume anything else, that type of <span data-t="2837.

1">life. And so my mentality and my thought pattern at the time was well, I grew up <span data-t="2842.

3">Christian, I grew up Catholic, I believe in it, and therefore, if that's the nature of existence <span data-t="2847.

4">for me, I should really lean into it. So I really leaned into it. I did the <span data-t="2851.

4">Bible reading every day, uh, I listened to Christian music all the time. I prayed over my <span data-t="2856.

0">food, like all that stuff. And it felt really difficult and it felt wrong, but it felt <span data-t="2862.

2">like I was my I try I attributed that to like the reason it felt wrong was <span data-t="2866.

8">because the devil or something was trying to keep me away from going down that path. And <span data-t="2870.

2">I actually had a lot of weird experiences during that time where I'll just give you one <span data-t="2873.

6">quick one. I wanted to listen to mainstream music in my car, and suddenly the car radio <span data-t="2879.

4">switched from the mainstream radio to a Christian radio station without me touching it, and that really <span data-t="2885.

2">freaked me out. That really deeply disturbed me in the sense that, like, oh, I'm really getting <span data-t="2889.

7">close to the nature of this and stuff. So experiences like that drove me deeper and deeper. <span data-t="2894.

9">But and I've said this before on our uh Wandering Road podcast. The thing, interestingly and hilariously <span data-t="2900.

8">enough, what kind of pushed me away from that ultra focus on Christianity was going to a <span data-t="2906.

4">Catholic university where we had to take different religion courses. So I learned about Judaism, I learned <span data-t="2912.

6">about Hinduism, Islam, and all the animism, animalism or whatever, like going all the way back, thousands <span data-t="2917.

7">of years of human history, and even all the way back to like, you know, when we <span data-t="2921.

2">first human humans first started coming up with the concept of God and the devil with, you <span data-t="2926.

0">know, so stuff like Zoriastrinism. And so when I got exposed to that, I'm like, wait a minute.

I have friends from other countries that I I really like and they have different religious <span data-t="2936.

2">perspectives and they're so kind and they they lean into their religion, but it's night and day <span data-t="2940.

3">to Christianity. So I'm like, why am I devoting time and energy into this when I think <span data-t="2945.

9">that there is different pathways or different perspectives? So when I made that strategic decision to <span data-t="2951.

1">break off and stop doing that ultra-Christian focus, I felt like I was getting dragged back into <span data-t="2957.

3">a negativity. So I don't even know what that was. And because now it, like for the <span data-t="2961.

5">last, you know, 20 years since that happened, or 15 years since that happened, I feel great. <span data-t="2966.

4">Like I've and I've had so much positive good things happen in my life, blessings of you <span data-t="2971.

5">know, chill healthy children and uh good job and a home and all this stuff, living in <span data-t="2976.

2">Hawaii, and it's confusing because the gravity of what I experienced diving deep into Christianity was in <span data-t="2983.

0">a way like a good feeling, a heavy feeling. But when I got away from it, I <span data-t="2986.

8">still had a good experience with life. So the reason I bring that up is because it <span data-t="2991.

0">all I could almost say that like I feel like I opened myself up to something negative <span data-t="2995.

1">and possibly even attracting attention to demonic when I started to pull away from Christianity. But now <span data-t="3000.

2">that I feel firmly rooted into kind of like a worldview where there's no cap on what <span data-t="3005.

2">religions could be true or false or whatever in the nature of existence, I feel much more <span data-t="3009.

6">free and happy than I I did when I was diving into Christianity. So I I don't <span data-t="3014.

3">know where that's gonna go from here with conversation wise. I'm sure you guys have thoughts and <span data-t="3017.

9">stuff, but I'll I'll just pause there and um and get your your perspectives on on that experience.

I feel like I puzzled, I I derailed the episode. I'm sorry.

Speaker 250:28

No, no, no, no. You you did not. Uh that is a very valid point because I <span data-t="3033.

7">I too went through something like that. When I was in eighth grade, I got the chance <span data-t="3040.

2">to go on a missionary trip to the far flown country of Detroit, Michigan. And we stayed <span data-t="3050.

0">at a predominantly African American church, and we went out every day and did missionary work and <span data-t="3057.

0">tried to preach the gospel and did nothing but listen to Christian music and pray four or <span data-t="3065.

2">five hours a day, and I I really got into it and even got saved a second time <span data-t="3073.

9">during that trip, etc. And when I came back, I began to see the hypocrisy shown by <span data-t="3082.

2">the preacher and the heretical views that were being espoused, and how kind of holier than thou <span data-t="3090.

3">the other congregants were, even kids my age or just a little bit older. And I backed <span data-t="3097.

0">away from that pretty hard. Was but I don't think that was a sign of opening yourself. <span data-t="3104.

5">It's just the more knowledge that you have, the the less. I don't really know where I'm <span data-t="3111.

3">going with this. The more knowledge you have.

Speaker 151:53

Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah, I I I I I totally I totally see what you're saying. It's <span data-t="3118.

1">like the fear, so you built yourself up on this pedestal of um rituals and beliefs, and <span data-t="3125.

0">the nature of stepping away from that safe zone in and of itself causes psychological fear and <span data-t="3131.

4">and fear of failure, feeling of failure and tearing away from yourself. And um that I can <span data-t="3137.

7">see now, uh, I I would agree with that 100%. I I wouldn't say that's opening yourself <span data-t="3142.

3">up to something uh like you know, increasing your risk of exposing to negativity and and demonic. <span data-t="3147.

4">I think it's just you're literally just stepping outside of your home that you stayed in for <span data-t="3151.

8">so long where it felt safe. And that feeling is the feeling that we went through. It <span data-t="3157.

0">wasn't something that was necessarily wrong. It was just a really terrifying fear because in, you know, <span data-t="3162.

2">the the thing that we were taught during those times of our lives is if you step <span data-t="3166.

0">away, if you turn your back away, you're in trouble. And that also reminds me of like <span data-t="3169.

8">what Chris was saying earlier about the nature of being born in a blank slate and stuff. <span data-t="3174.

8">And one that there are very specific lines from the Bible that have stayed with me, and <span data-t="3180.

4">one of them is, and I I'm sure it's not verbatim, but it's something like when you <span data-t="3184.

6">go to heaven, you will return to being the state of children or something, or like you <span data-t="3188.

4">will become children again. And I know there's inter probably interpretations in that, but it it's like <span data-t="3193.

8">that that tearing away of the self that you built up is the negative feeling. It's not <span data-t="3199.

4">necessarily evil, it's just you're you're stepping into the unknown.

Speaker 253:23

But I would say that the faith that I had then, and it's probably because I was <span data-t="3210.

2">a younger individual and didn't really know that much about subtlety, but the faith I had then <span data-t="3218.

0">was extremely loud. It was prominent, it was at the forefront of a lot of the crap <span data-t="3225.

2">that I did. And the faith that I have now is quiet. It's no less powerful than <span data-t="3233.

1">what it was, but yet, you know, it does form a very core part of who I am <span data-t="3239.

1">and my identity, but I don't feel the need to go out and loudly proclaim to the <span data-t="3244.

7">world, this is what I believe. It's just what I am.

Speaker 354:09

I think if you have to do that, it's like you're trying to convince yourself that 100% <span data-t="3256.

5">believe that stuff. It's yeah, if you guys never watch Game of Thrones, there's there's a line <span data-t="3261.

8">where Joffrey says, I am the king, and his grandfather Tywin Lannister responds the man that has <span data-t="3269.

7">to say he is the king is no true king. It's on the lines of who are you <span data-t="3275.

0">trying to convince? Because your actions will determine what you believe and what you really think you <span data-t="3279.

9">are. And since Dean, Dean, you mentioned like there was a part of the Bible that you <span data-t="3285.

8">you know that stuck with you. The one that sticks with me and I attribute it to <span data-t="3291.

3">a lot of people that I see on social media and stuff, it's it's I think it's <span data-t="3297.

0">in correct me if I'm wrong, JJ. It might be in Revelation, it might not be, but <span data-t="3302.

4">it says Christ comes back, and then the people that goes go to him and they say, <span data-t="3307.

5">Did I not worship in your name? Did I not do this for you? And he's like he <span data-t="3312.

6">like turns away from them. He like tosses them away. He's like, You didn't I didn't know, <span data-t="3317.

0">I don't know you because you never did that for me. You did it for yourself. You <span data-t="3320.

9">did it for performative reasons. You did it like these these preachers do that go, they have <span data-t="3326.

5">these millions of dollars and they're going to ask for donations.

Speaker 255:29

So you could buy a Rolls-Royce, like Christ demands that I travel in a private jet.

Speaker 355:36

Man, yeah, like that dipshit that was asking to see people's tax returns. I'm like, what <span data-t="3341.

6">the hell's wrong with you? And I have a gripe with the Catholic Church with the amount <span data-t="3345.

4">of fucking wealth that they have. 10% you're talking about like giving to the poor and stuff. <span data-t="3352.

3">You could inflate the world economy if you wanted to with how much gold and treasures that <span data-t="3356.

6">you have.

Speaker 255:57

Do that. You got that right. Yeah, and I mean, just talking about tax returns, shit. If <span data-t="3365.

0">you I mean, that's not true. That's not just true for televangelists, it's true for a lot <span data-t="3371.

4">of Catholic congregations, especially if they happen to run a school in which your kids go to. <span data-t="3377.

7">You're required to prove what your income is, match whatever the minimum requirement is, and so that <span data-t="3384.

8">your kids can go there. And it's just it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's the world is full of <span data-t="3389.

8">hypocrisy, you know.

Speaker 356:31

But I guess the tie back in, I think, to the topic that we were talking, we're <span data-t="3397.

6">talking about today. How interestingly enough, the three of us, based off of our upbringing, kind of <span data-t="3402.

9">broke out of our shells and we're now in this mindset of I know what I believe, <span data-t="3408.

2">I don't have to prove it to you. So to pull it back to the, you know, things <span data-t="3412.

5">being demonic and stuff like that, just because you came out of your shell, you started exploring <span data-t="3417.

8">things a little bit, you were curious and a little bit analytical, you know, you wanted to <span data-t="3423.

0">do some research, and you, for example, looked into, I don't know, JJ, you did an episode <span data-t="3429.

1">previously about names of demons, right? Just because you look that up doesn't mean you're gonna go <span data-t="3435.

0">start summoning them. I mean, if you start doing that, then that's your problem. You're kind of <span data-t="3439.

4">shit out of luck. But just because, you know, certain things are labeled with demon in the <span data-t="3446.

0">name, or they have these scary-looking monsters on the cover, or anything of that sort, anything creative, <span data-t="3453.

0">it it it's not something you should automatically brand as demonic or evil just because you don't <span data-t="3460.

2">like the way it looks, or you don't take the time to understand the concept of it, <span data-t="3465.

4">what it's trying to convey.

Speaker 257:47

And don't in fact, that is its own danger. If you see evil lurking in every single <span data-t="3475.

4">bloody shadow, then you're never going to recognize when it actually comes up and bites you in <span data-t="3481.

4">the face. Yeah, I think 100%.

Speaker 158:03

Yeah. An additional perspective, and kind of touching back on the psychological conversation we had earlier, <span data-t="3489.

8">I feel like by nature of humans, we want to face the things that will hurt us <span data-t="3495.

9">or kill us the most, or some, you know, a lot of people do, not everybody, but <span data-t="3499.

7">there's a tendency to want to do that. And it it's in the same vein as like <span data-t="3503.

3">like whenever someone is. I just saw a video recently of someone um talking about how they <span data-t="3508.

4">had throat cancer. And she was talking about how when she told people she had throat cancer, <span data-t="3513.

5">all the things they would list off about um they the things they thought caused it for her.

It's like, oh, do you smoke? Nope, don't smoke. Well, maybe it was your makeup. Well, <span data-t="3521.

8">no, uh, you know, it's not makeup, you know, whatever. She's going down the list, right? And <span data-t="3525.

2">then really, like her perspective on that was well, really what they're doing is they're asking you <span data-t="3530.

5">the things they're they're running things across you to find out what caused your cancer so they <span data-t="3535.

1">themselves can check and see the things they do if that's going to cause cancer for their throat.

And so that kind of goes back to the idea of visiting the demonic or even just <span data-t="3544.

3">religion in general, the curiosity. It's like, oh, I need to like really figure out what can <span data-t="3549.

2">really destroy me and the highest question and like destroy my soul forever. Like that's terri, that's <span data-t="3554.

2">the penultimate terrifying thing, right? So I need to go see this, I need to go experience <span data-t="3559.

4">this for myself so I could figure out how to defeat it, or I could figure out <span data-t="3563.

2">if there's a way to stop it. But that's kind of counterintuitive, right? Like Chris was saying, <span data-t="3567.

4">like, oh, I'm gonna piss off this guy because someone's saying he's gonna stab me in the <span data-t="3571.

6">neck, but I want to see for myself if I could stop being stabbed in the neck. <span data-t="3576.

4">And so I think that's where a true danger of human psychology comes into play with the <span data-t="3581.

2">demonic when people are trying to explore it. You might have the greatest intentions ever deep down <span data-t="3586.

2">about figuring out how to defeat it, maybe even not just for yourself or other people, but <span data-t="3589.

8">then you ultimately walked yourself into a bear den, and you're really, you really are gonna find <span data-t="3595.

7">out, oh, I'm not gonna be able to do this on my own. I'm not gonna be able <span data-t="3598.

6">to defeat this or whatever. And so I think that's to me, that is one of the <span data-t="3603.

0">the ultimate entryways into exposing yourself to something truly evil or demonic, is just out of the <span data-t="3609.

2">nature of wanting to prevent it from happening, which is kind of like silly, right? It's like, <span data-t="3613.

8">man, that's that's that's too much. That's heavy.

Speaker 21:00:16

It is, but it's also, I think, as um the satanic panic has really kind of taught <span data-t="3623.

1">those who have looked at it is the more you ascribe to the infernal, the less responsibility <span data-t="3632.

4">you have for all the bad things that are going on in your life. You know, if <span data-t="3637.

2">you're cheat and then say, oh, the demon of lust must have gotten you. No, it was <span data-t="3641.

9">your dumbass who went out and did it. You can't attribute this. Yeah, if you do bad <span data-t="3647.

6">shit, it's because you did bad shit, not because you know something made you do it.

Speaker 31:00:52

It was Pazuzu.

Speaker 21:00:55

Don't even get it. Or Zozo.

Speaker 11:00:58

Zozo.

Speaker 21:00:59

Zozo, yeah. Alrighty. Well, I think we have brought this home and it's been a phenomenal conversation.

Chris and Dean, where can people find y'all at?

Speaker 31:01:10

Yeah, so you can find The Wandering Road on pretty much every major podcast platform. Just <span data-t="3676.

2">search for The Wandering Road. We are also on video, on YouTube, and on Spotify. So if <span data-t="3682.

3">you prefer to watch video episodes and look at our ugly faces, you can find this there. <span data-t="3687.

9">If you would like to be on the show, you can reach us at TWroadpodcast at gmail.com. <span data-t="3694.

5">We have people reaching out to us and we always enjoy interfacing with the community, whether you <span data-t="3699.

5">have a question, a comment, whatever, or you want to be on the show, share your story. <span data-t="3704.

2">Want to remain anonymous, share your story, and we could make an episode out of it and <span data-t="3709.

0">read it on the show. We've done that quite a few times with some listener stories. So <span data-t="3713.

1">if that's something that interests you, go ahead and reach out to us at our email address. <span data-t="3717.

2">We're also on social media. You could find us on our Facebook page, just search for The <span data-t="3721.

2">Wandering Road. Um, we're more active on Instagram now. So if you search uh TW Road Podcast <span data-t="3727.

5">on Instagram, you could go ahead and give our page a follow and you could shoot us <span data-t="3731.

4">a DM on there if you'd like to collaborate or have a story and want to come <span data-t="3735.

4">on the show. Cool.

Speaker 21:02:16

All right, thanks so much, guys. You're listening, and those who are listening on The Wandering <span data-t="3741.

4">Road, Southern Demonology is available on all all podcasting platforms, and you can find us on Southern <span data-t="3748.

8">Demonology.com. Thank you all for listening. It's been a fantastic to have y'all here. It's been a <span data-t="3755.

3">good conversation. Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at sevendemonology.com where you <span data-t="3771.

9">can find all of our social links, including YouTube, TikTok, and Patreon, in addition to listen to <span data-t="3780.

3">episodes and read their transcripts. Also, if you have a moment, please rate this podcast and share <span data-t="3788.

3">it with friends, as nothing can help us grow more.