Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, tales, and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, then sit back, relax, and welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more. Hello, all, and welcome back to another episode of Southern Demonology. This time a joint release with my wonderful friends, or not so wonderful, depending upon the day, of uh the wandering road folks of Chris and Dean. I love to have you guys here. Thank you all for having.
And today we are going to be talking about a rather spicy topic, which can be considered an extension of our demonology series that we've been carrying on about for the past year or so. And that would be demonic gateways, or specifically what is demonic and what is not, because this is I think for as long as there's ever going to be religion, this is going to be a prevalent topic, and it's going to be a fun time to discuss. How are you? How are you gents doing today?
Not too bad. Not too bad. Just a little tired. Uh the weather has been so up and down where I'm at. Like literally, it was in the mid-70s and then it dropped to like 29 and it started snowing. And we had like two, three inches of snow, and I felt like crap for the most of the week.
Yeah, same thing here. We got an inch of snow, and now it's back in the 50s or 60s or whatever the hell it is. There's actually, according to old southern folklore, there are five seasonal shifts, and each, especially coming from winter into spring, each one of those is named for the type of flower or fruit which is known to bloom during that particular time. So one of them will be blackberry, etc. And that was apparently so boring that everyone went silent. So I don't blame you. So, Mr. Chris, would you like to kick us off?
Yeah, I would actually, because I kind of bitched about this to you um a little earlier today, when I knew we were gonna be talking about this specific topic. One thing that gets on my nerves, and I don't care who gets mad at it, is not everything is demonic. Just because it has Demon in the title, Demon Slayer, K pop Demon Hunters, does not mean it's flipping demonic. Pull your head out of your ass and get a clear understanding that that's not the case. Just because it has that in the title doesn't mean it's gonna conjure anything.
Take a second, take a step back, like we say in the corporate world, in the IT world, let's let's take a high-level look at this. Like let's take a step back and look at this from a high level. 50,000 foot view. A 50,000 foot view. Let's not try to boil the ocean, people. That strategic. Let's be strategic about this, right? Let's use our synergy to No, but on a serious note, it's so frustrating because like I'm sitting here watching Demon Slayer. If you pay attention to the title, what the hell do you think Demon Slayer is about? Just take one guess. I've seen it, so I I wouldn't.
If you Dean, uh you probably never watched it, Dean. If you saw something titled Demon Slayer, what do you think that show or that comic is going to be about? I mean, if if I knew the title gives it away.
Yeah. I mean, so like it's like um what's that one like Death Note where I would think of like something like Death Note where there's like beasts and creatures and there's a hero and he's trying to like slay, you know, take care of them. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Slaying demons. Demon hunters. Do you think it's demons hunting people or the other way around? Oh, yeah. I don't know. Oh, I see. People fucking hunting demons. I'm sorry, dude. Like, I'm just gonna end up ranting on this because I'm so exposed to people like this throughout my entire life that it's so frustrating. Any creative outlet, if you draw something or you write about something that is inherently unique or different and it makes them uncomfortable, they automatically label it as demonic. And it's so dumb. It's so dumb. I'm sorry, it's dumb.
Like my rant now and just like hand it over to you guys.
So people people think I wasn't picking up on that in the beginning when you were asking me. So you're saying that there are people who think that K-pop demon hunters or demon slayers or whatever, they they think that it's from the perspective of the other way around where like the the main character is the demon and they're hunting, like they're the evil entities that are, or you're saying that like just the fact that the demons are in the show, it's like a negative thing.
Yeah, anything that even remotely smacks of the infernal, whether it has demon in the name or has, as Chris was saying, weird creatures in it, people automatically get something hairy up their butts and will just go off about it. And I I mean, I'm a prime example of this. I've suffered from this stigma almost my entire life. I loved drawing when I grew up. And as anyone who's listened to the show knows, I grew up in the belt buckle of the Bible belt, and I love drawing monsters.
In fact, I had a whole creation of them which numbered, I think at the end, like over 150 different types called hide-behinds. And they had big horns on their head and horns coming out their mouth, and people, when they saw this, thought that, oh my god, this child is touched by the demonic. And I even like drew a comic. Oh my god. The and the Bible belt book. Oh my god. Yeah, the principal came back and actually complained to my mom and said, We can't have this because it's giving the young kids nightmares and even though it was nothing that would ever do anything like that.
It was ridiculous.
Wow. I I mean, what is like what's the closest like did you ever have anyone come up to you and say, like, oh, we need to have a serious talk about this because it's you're getting too close to the devil demonic side, or like what was your what was your craziest experience? Like someone talked, like pull off the side, talk to you about it.
Well, the one the one that really shook me to my core. So when I was in eighth grade, I began playing Dungeons and Dragons. And this was anything from first edition to second edition. And my mom actually sat me down and was alternately cursing me and crying, saying that it's you know, DD is nothing but the devil, and I could go to hell, and I was endangering my soul. And she's the most like irreligious person I know. There's no church, there's no nothing, but yet interesting.
She was so consumed by all the news media and all the satanic panic that was, of course, evident during those times, because I'm an old fart, that she really thought that I was endangering my ever-living soul. So, yeah, that that shook me. Did you guys stop? No.
No, of course not. No, because it's fun. There's there's okay, there's a movie. I'm sure everyone, like most people listening, are gonna know what I'm talking about immediately. But if you haven't seen it, watch this older movie called Detroit Rock City. And uh, I can't remember the you know I'm talking about the okay, I don't remember maybe uh JJ, you probably know or remember more about it. I can't remember the band they were obsessed with. I think it was Kiss.
And uh it's about these young boys growing up in Detroit, and uh they were so infatuated, like to rock out they they really love KISS, and the mom was always like, It's the devil, like it's it's evil, it's evil music, or whatever. That just reminds me like the same similar story. Such a great movie.
It is, but yeah, I mean me, I I know that we've touched upon satanic panic in the past, and I'm not looking to retread a whole bunch of uh well-explored pathways, but yeah. Yeah, DD was definitely in the in the limelight for that one. And even as a kid, like if my relatives ever wanted to know, you know, what they should get me for a birthday or Christmas, my mom would simply say, find the ugliest monster that you can find in the store and buy that. And that was ideally what I loved the most. Well, that's kind of nice that you still like went along with it.
That's cool.
As long as it wasn't DD, she didn't particularly care. So that's interesting. But the ironic part about that is you know, there was this major group called Mad, Mothers Against Dungeons and Dragons, and they spread nationally, and they're the ones that were saying that DD was corrupting and was a satanic influence, etc. etc. Now, don't get me wrong, TSR at the time, the company that controlled DD, they did produce books which liberally used religious themes. So some of this came down on their heads for the lack of PR savvy, in which they had.
But the funny thing is that MAD became so well known that it actually drove people to try and hear about DD than it ever did from detracting from it. And that's one of the main reasons why when you think TTRPG, the first thing that comes to mind usually is Dungeons and Dragons.
Yeah, JJ, I know we kind of had like a path we wanted to follow, and I kind of want to stick to that as well, you know, talking about trying to identify like what is scary as opposed to like, you know, what can actually be a gateway to the demonic.
But one thing I wanted to chime in with is, and I wanted both your perspectives on this, isn't it kind of like this type of reaction to I would say any type of creativity is I view it as anti-creative and anti-intellectual because just because, for example, if I draw like a minotaur, a hero killing a minotaur or something like that, or something of the equivalent from Greek mythology or something, or I create like you, JJ, you created your own type of monsters. It's it's creativity. We like to explore things that we don't understand. We like to explore things that we don't know.
Sometimes is it to your own detriment, potentially, like if you go messing with the Ouija board or tarot cards and you don't have the proper intentions and don't know what you're doing?
Yeah.
Yeah, using those type of tools can potentially welcome in something that you can't get rid of or open up a gateway. But from that perspective, I just view all of this type of behavior and all of these type of reactions as you do not have a single creative bone in your body because you can't sit there for five seconds and try to understand what the art or game or whatever is trying to convey. It's not that difficult. I hate when people like to use things as a shield for ignorance. And it and it does such a disservice for people that actually deal with this stuff.
I mean, for you, JJ, you do consultations for people that reach out to you that think they are afflicted by this stuff. And what would how would you react if you had someone set up a consultation with you and you get in that room or call with them and they're like, Well, my kid started watching K-pop Demon Hunter, and now we think we're being attacked by demons? Like, you would probably just immediately leave that call.
Because it's I would I would first try to explain, but and I've ran into this with certain members of congregations where their worldview is so narrow that they think that almost all TV is inherently evil because they have the audacity to show a gay person. The narrow-mindedness is so terrifying to witness and behold in these situations that you know it's a lost cause. Like I could talk till I'm blue in the face, and no one would ever pay attention to what I'm saying because I am automatically in the wrong.
Right. Yeah. And I think I I come from like the reason I'm coming in so hot on this topic, it's because you've been doing Southern Demonology for what, almost a decade. Dean and I have been doing uh TWR for three and a half years. And what we're trying to do is to provide an outlet for people to one, share their stories, and two, you know, provide people with at least some type of educated guesses and information of what this stuff could potentially be. And when people behave in that manner, it does such a disservice to anybody involved in this type of community.
And it's just frustrating because you automatically get lumped into that.
It is, but there are certain individuals who only see the world in black and white, and there's never any gray whatsoever. And it's those, in fact, there's a a psychological phenomenon which simply says, you know, the more you don't know, the the more impossible it becomes for you to realize how much you don't know. And if you apply that more liberally, and uh I think that this type of black and white worldview ultimately becomes a huge disservice to the individuals in which have it.
But I think that goes to the the broader question about the nature of existence, and it's like, what what do you believe existence that as a human is more about? Is it more about the severity of life and the seriousness of it and the gravity of the pain and suffering that you have to kind of traverse and and um deflect through seeking out religious freedom or like or something or touching the divine rather?
Or is it more about, like you said, JG, like broadening your perspective and understanding that people are not as different and the kindness side of it and the thing that I jump off into going back into like the like you said, Chris, the creativity and all that stuff, the stuff that's put out there.
I think it's interesting that if you were to put like a biblical, like for someone who is like real uh narrow-minded, if you were to put the biblical perspective on it, say, oh, it was Jesus fighting the demons in a show, or even if it's like, you know, like, oh, the person fighting the demons is religiously sanctioned by by God or Jesus and like that's what they're doing. But even if you take that away, it's kind of silly, right? Because like in these shows, or even in DD or whatever, you're fighting evil spirits, like you're fighting evil monsters or entities or whatever.
And that kind of seems like a positive, right? Like, like if you if you have people who are doing stuff in these shows or or content who are trying to suppress or defeat evil spirits or demons, like that seems like it should be a positive, good thing for for someone who believes that narrow-mindedness. But but like you guys said, just because just because it it's a media thing, that you know, mainstream, it becomes negative. So I that's just that's where my brain goes with this.
There is a you know, there's a practical side to this as well. So, you know, as Chris alluded to, I do hold consultations for people that think that they are besieged by something. And one of the first questions that always comes up is is this demonic? And I have a set of criteria which helps to at least point in the right direction. I'm not gonna I can't say that yes, it absolutely is, no, it absolutely is not, but it at least provides a lot of you know pretty solid ground for how to continue on that front.
And luckily, I haven't encountered people that have said, oh, you know, my my kid watched this, you know, this cartoon show and suddenly they're besieged by the devil. It's never been anything so ridiculous as that. But it's you know, if if someone has serious things going on in their house or something that's following them, I'm not going to give specifics because I don't ever want to intrude upon anyone's privacy to that extent, because whatever is said is said in confidence. But, you know, that is a practical distinction.
But going beyond that, just trying to assure other people out there that even though you may think something is demonic, you have to look at criteria. And if you don't, then you're kind of you're giving the infernal a hell of a lot more credit than what they are due. And in the end, that is more dangerous than never assuming that something is demonic.
So, JJ, let's jump right into this then. So let me ask you, what is some sort of how could you recognize it's demonic? What are some telltale signs as opposed to something, you know, that's like you wouldn't consider it to be the case?
So if it's simple bumps in the night, that's probably not going to be demonic. Some of the things that really kind of tell that something has gone well beyond even the paranormal pale is does it inspire dread? If it does that, then you know it it doesn't necessarily mean but it's a pretty good indication that you're dealing with something a lot darker than your run-of-the-mill haunting. Does it react to religious artifacts? If it does, then that is an excellent sign that you're dealing with something more than a ghost. Those are two of the primary things that I look at.
And one of the others is does it follow? So if you move domiciles and the same thing happens, that could be a sign that it is a demonic or infernal entity rather than a simple haunting. Or does it happen outside of the home? If you're going to work, do you still feel something? Is it bothering you? That is a good indication. Does that make sense to y'all?
Yeah, absolutely. I guess a follow-up question to that would be like uh switching back over to the people who are concerned about the media and the shows that that maybe like child their children are consuming or something like that. What I mean that see, this is the thing that's really difficult.
So it I feel like if you have an attraction from the demonic, and maybe even if it's like not pre-existing yet, like in the sense that it is making itself known to the point where it's a problem, but then it coincides with people who are um are are starting to have children or something that are creeping into these shows, and then they're starting to experience more of this uh, you know, these demonic, these potentially demonic experiences. How would you respond to somebody dealing with that? And and the reason I bring up that question is because it seems like there could be any vector.
Um and like like for instance, a doll, right? Like a doll that is seemingly benign that should have no original, like if you were to guess that, oh, there's nothing demonic about this toy or this doll or something like that, but things start attaching to it or people are suspecting there's an attachment, how would you respond to somebody where it's coinciding with like like a show or something like that, or where things are starting to happen more?
Would you just say that it has nothing to do with it whatsoever, or or would you maybe suggest, like, oh, you're, you know, maybe the infatuation that somebody has with the demonic as they're watching these shows, could that be a potential vector? Because it's kind of it's a it's not the show itself, it's them aligning their awareness and kind of negative like drawing the negativity to them because they're so infatuated with the minutia of the demonic or the idea of the demonic in in like a show or or a content or something like that.
I mean it's a that is a fantastic question because I have had an interview with a individual who became very interested in sort of darker things because of Indiana Jones, believe it or not, Kali Ma. And that kind of I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say that.
It's an interesting thing, it's such a bad representation of it, too.
Of course it is. I mean, it has very little to nothing to do. With the actual thing, but that's Hollywood for you. I mean, it over exaggerates everything. But um, I mean, but that is a a really good point that it is that interest which can draw you in. And the more you give into that, then it can become a potential vector. As we said, you know, there are you know three different, at least three different stages to uh demonic possession. And then it first starts off with obsession, and that's just a purely mental thing.
But the less your spiritual house is in order, the more openings that you were giving to the infernal to come into your life. And if you're highly like if you started watching evil, for example, and you became truly interested in demonic sigals and began researching them and you know seeing how valid they may be, etc., that could well very well become a vector. But it is that interest alone is not going to expose you.
Now, if you're doing a ton of other bad stuff in your life and you combine that with this infatuation, maybe, or let's say that you start associating with an individual who absolutely does not have their shit in order, then yeah, you could be opening yourself via another individual. I can always rely upon the um the business shorthand of emails of thoughts.
I feel like I'm talking too much.
So I'm leaving some room for Chris to So, based off of that example that you just gave JJ, well, not example, but kind of like that point you just made. So where would we draw the line between being open to it and reckless experimentation, we should say. Like For example, I love horror movies. We all love horror movies here. I Dean, I don't know if you like horror movies. Do you? Yeah. I had never asked you this directly.
Used to watch them all the time, and the only reason I kind of drew back is just because I've been so busy. I haven't even been watching any movies really. But yeah, I like horror movies.
Plus, you have little kids too, so it's like you can't really you have to wait strategically. Yeah. I was about to say, if you don't like horror movies, get on out because we don't need your condo out here.
No, man. I I let me tell you something. So like I watched horror movies so much, even from a young age, like I love all going all the way back to Tales from the Crypt when um I would lay on the floor and my you know my parents would watch it or something, and um I was told to like look away at the scariest parts, but I would still peek or you know, I would go out to the movie uh rental place with my best friend and sleepovers, we'd always rent at least one horror movie. And um, I'll tell you one that like messed me up was Dr. Giggles. Uh that is a super old, corny, cheesy horror movie.
But when you're a kid, you don't really understand like cheesy corny yet. So the one thing that messed me up from that movie, Dr. Giggles, was when this guy was standing next to a door and uh Dr. Giggles, the evil demonic doctor, stuck a needle through a keyhole and injected this guy with something, and then he just started bleeding from the eyes, the ears, the mouth, the nose, like just completely, and he just died. And I thought for so many years after that that it was possible that you could be injected with something that would cause that to happen.
Of course, it's there's no such thing, but yeah, just just going back to the whole comment about Hollywood like just completely running with something crazy. And but yeah, that's just my little horror movie side story from from you.
No, that's a great point. Because uh, I remember the very first horror movie I ever saw, we saw in theaters, and it was Monster in the Closet. Have y'all ever been across this gym? Yes. I got and of course, I mean it is the most, you know, horror comedy kind of thing that could ever be devised. But six-year-old me had no idea what corny or cheesy or horror comedy ever would, and it scared the absolute bejesus out of me. God, but I loved it and I kept coming back to horror every single time I could, and that persisted all the way up to today.
Kind of reminds me of Gremlins. Remember, like Gremlins was supposed to be like they started out making Gremlins as a horror, and then if you go back and you watch the interviews of the people who were directing it or whatever, putting the movie together, they're like, This is this is a comedy. Like, this is and then they just really ran with the comedy aspect. And so, like, if you're watching it as a kid, of course it's gonna terrible, you're not gonna pick up on the comedy, but then you watch it again as an adult, and you're like, wow, this is really funny.
Actually, at that point, I I saw Gremlins in theaters. Yes, I am that old.
And grief.
And I even as a kid, I knew that was comedy. Yeah. There's a couple of scenes in there, it was a little rough, but it was it was a good time. And of course, Gremlins 2 took the comedy thing to the absolutely inane extreme.
Jack Frost Little Monsters was my favorite. Oh, yeah, Little Monsters in the 80s. Little Monsters. Y'all ever seen that? The Nick the Nickelodeon show? Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. It was an actual movie. Howie Mandel was like the monster under the bed, and he had he was blue. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and there was like that big other one that they had to like kill with the flashlights apparently, or like UV lights or something. Yeah, I enjoyed that one.
I like mon I like Monster Squad, who was a good one. I don't think I think Fred Savage when he was a little kid. Yep.
But um but back to what I was the point I was making or the question I was asking you, JJ, it's like, where do we draw the line here? Because someone that loves horror movies and always like me, I love horror movies, but I have a specific subcategory that I enjoy watching, which is demonic possession. And the reason for that is because of The Exorcist. That was the first horror movie I watched as a kid. Watched it on VHS, scared the ever living hell out of me.
That's a high bar you set for yourself there, but yeah, it's it I've always been chasing that high ever since, and nothing, no other movie has ever done it for me. Thankfully, last year I got was it last year? Yeah, last year I got to meet Linda Blair, which was freaking awesome.
But I was so jealous seeing that photo. But have you seen the Exorcist diversion you've never seen? That's actually the official tagline of it. Yeah, I have the VHS of it. Okay. Yeah, that I remember watching that in college, and oh, it was so good.
Yeah, but but my question is like for someone like me that enjoys that stuff, like I've always watched that. I prefer to watch movies involving demonic possession, probably because of the exorcist and it was done so well. Does that quote unquote open me up, you know, like puts me in the danger zone to attract this stuff to me? Or can we use some like where can we draw the line there?
Common sense is where you can draw the line. Thank you. I would put it this way. You know, if like for example, I'm interested in not only demonic possession films, but zombie movies and supernatural films. I don't really care for slashers or torture porn or things along those lines. If you keep your interest at interest, no problem. Like it's not going to affect your life at all.
Now, if it's to the point where you begin trying to go to occult bookstores or attempt Ouija boards to contact the demonic, if you take that interest and turn it into actualization, then you are stepping over a line which you really should not ever cross. If you start trying out magic and you know exposing yourself to even more potential vectors for danger, that is a really horrendously bad idea. As long as it stays at interest, no problem. If that interest begins to affect your life, problem. And of course, there's a lot of gray area in that.
You know, there's there's no way it can be as simple as that. But if you lead a disorderly and chaotic life, if you invite chaos into your life and you allow your interests to then dictate your actions, that's when bad things can happen.
I think another perspective too, there is um you can't I feel like you can't have these conversations without introducing the things we've talked about in the past, like psychological nature of of humans, where um and and not to rehash the same thing we talked about before, but just to kind of topically bring it up again, people who are predisposed to having a psychological issue that's hardwired into their brain or something like that. I feel like I'll I'll actually I'll pose this as a question.
So, do you guys think that people who have that nature about them where they might become obsessive just due to the fact of the nature of their psychological state, they should be extra cautious? Like, let's say you have somebody who has uh a diagnosed psychological issue, but they also like horror movies. Do you think that that could make them more likely to fall down that rabbit hole and maybe attract something?
And and and I guess a second part to that is like people who have predisposed psychological issues or or challenges, do they become easier targets for this sort of thing, especially when they open up vectors like media or content that might be including concepts of demonic, or is it kind of like everybody across the board has an equal chance of attracting this sort of thing if they're not careful?
I think and I'm just speaking for myself because I'm the type of individual that tends to hyper focus on things that grab my interest. And if I like it, I like hyper focus on it for for weeks. That's how I finish like TV shows within a span of like, I don't know, a week and a half. Where whereas it takes others like three years.
But I think from that perspective, just speaking for myself, if you tend to hyperfocus on certain things and you draw yourself, you find yourself drawn to one of those things, and you just go in a deep dive into it, it depending on what you do, it could lead to some negativity, I think. You can open yourself up because, like they say, curiosity killed the cat, right?
It's one of those things where if you're not careful and you just go too deep into it, and you for you, it's like, okay, I think I'm doing this for research purposes, but if that research purpose turns into you're drawing a damn pentagram and sigils and stuff on the ground, obsession. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, to be honest, some people might do that just out of like bare curiosity because you know, people are like, you know what, this is bullshit. So I'm gonna see if anything happens.
There are people that that like Dave Chappelle says about Rick James, habitual line steppers, they they do it because that's just in their nature. It's like if I tell JJ, like, dude, don't do this because somebody's gonna come and like stab you in the neck, you're gonna be like bullshit. If you're that type of person, you'll be like, bullshit, prove it. Like I'm gonna do this right now. So I think it's again, it's not objective because everybody's different. If you tend to hyperfocus, yeah, maybe you could fall into that trap. And you're not really consciously trying to do anything wrong.
So that that's just my perspective on that.
I would agree, but bringing in particular mental disorders is an interesting part of the question. So let's say someone suffers from psychosis where they can hear voices or they see people which aren't really there. Like Dean. And there's no Dean on this call. What are you doing? No, I'm just talking to myself.
I mean But I mean, that JJ, there is no podcast. You're just here talking. That would not be a good thing. That's like that's my greatest fear.
That's my greatest fear. Like waking up and then just like not there's nothing like the last however many years is just you in a straight jacket. That's a true horror movie right there.
Maxwell's demon. But um, no, I mean, but that could absolutely start to fuck with your head even more, you know, if you start watching demonic films and getting really, really into it, who knows what the heck the voices may begin to morph into.
Yeah. Okay, real quick, here's an interesting thought. I'm not gonna I won't say like a I'll just give you, I'll let you guys decide if it's interesting. But um if this is logical. So if a if demons uh whole uh shtick uh on humanity is to cause issues and problems that destabilize uh and this is you know, this is just talking from like maybe just let's just focus on Judeo-Christian or whatever, like you know, that perspective of religion and humanity.
If if the demon's goal is to disrupt and bring down humans to a point where they just are so far away from having a chance of divinity or whatever, it seems to me like they would look at somebody who has a psychological issue who might become infatuated, and they just be like, this guy's already messing up his own life. This person's already doing my job for me. So maybe it's like less likely for them to actually experience something demonic because it's just too easy. Like, okay, I'm gonna move on to somebody else who I can actually wreck territory.
Who knows? I mean, uh Malachi Martin did a pretty decent sample size of those who were affected by demonic influence, and there were no particular indications of socioeconomic status or anything else that pointed to you are more likely to become targeted by the demonic than not. So it honestly it's up to it's in I mean it it's up in the air. Who the hell knows? But the bane of worthy it is, but the more doors you go to open, the more risk you absolutely invite onto yourself.
I I don't want to I don't want to derail, but I have to ask you, uh JJ, from from you don't maybe not you don't have to talk about your personal beliefs, but just from what you've studied and stuff like that. What would your guess best guess be about the purpose of humans from a religious perspective? Like if they're like divinity or whatever, like why do we exist?
And the reason I bring this up is because I thought about this recently again, just last night, interestingly enough, and I not again didn't had no idea we were talking about this today, so it's really creepy that you know I thought about this again. But I was thinking, are humans kind of like looked upon from the divine side, you know, either demonic or or the good good side? Are we kind of like a test of the nature of God and evil where it's like, oh, we need like they're we're gonna we're gonna put them through the ringer and see what they choose, sort of thing?
Or is there another answer to that where or another perspective where it's like people are just kind of going through life and we're just gonna see how they react, but there's no real challenge or there's no real answer to choice for them to to to come to like the the good side or the bad side? Because I feel like that is I know that's a really high-level question, but from what you've studied, like what is the purpose of the nature of humankind when it comes to choice of good and evil or or another perspective?
Well, I mean, if you look at me, it is a very high-level question, but it's a good one. If you look, if you look at it from a Christian perspective, then it's because God loves us, and because God is existing at all times and all places, then there's no history, and it's just always omnipresent for God. So, you know, creation, it doesn't matter when creation happened, he knows what humanity is. And then if you look at the opposite side, it's that Satan or the devil or the infernal, whatever you want to call it, is here to corrupt and putrefy us before God in order to cause him pain.
And if you look at Zoroastrianism, which we gathered a lot of stuff from, then Achura Mazda created humanity, but then Achriman, the the arch enemy, said that it will make your creatures hate you. So it's always that kind of core idea of corruption.
Yeah. I think the reason why that gives me even more pause and fear is because it's like the best way to put it is like we're damned if we do, damned if we don't, in a sense, because it seems like when you go back to the concept of like the Garden of Eden, where we took a bite of the forbidden fruit and then we got the knowledge of good and evil.
It almost seems to me, in a logical sense, that something that we consider evil, like Satan or or Hurmazda or whatever, like we are given the knowledge of the bad things that are out there that we otherwise shouldn't be aware of and we should just be there loving God. And then that goes in the same vein of people who are saying like Christians, ultra-Christian people who believe that our whole goal is to get to heaven and worship God for eternity at his feet.
And um, that is a scary concept to me because if you introduce the concept that I and I know I'm gonna get this wrong, so Chris, please jump in with your history knowledge, but there were there's a religion, I don't can't remember if it's it's Greek or whatever, but whoever brought the fire for man was punished. Right and who was that? Prometheus, yeah. Prometheus in Greek mythology. And that that's similar, right?
Because it's like we were given this knowledge of awareness of all depths up and down, or like you know, heights and depths of knowledge, and we weren't supposed to have that, but that also makes us who we are as individuals when we're going through this life. So it's almost like it seems like the answer, if you do subscribe to say Christianity in the in the in the uh the most like significant way, that you'd have to give that up. You'd have to give up that awareness and knowledge just to purely hold on to the good and closeness to a divine deity or God or something like that.
So going back to the demonic, it's almost like us we're testing ourselves and our exposure to this sort of thing. But at the end, if we want to achieve this goodness with within the context of like Christianity or something, we would have to give all of that up. And then in that way, we wouldn't really be ourselves. And so it's almost like there's a tearing of the self in order to reach out to the divine.
And I'm I'm not and just to clarify, I'm not saying this is what the nature of reality is, this is just a perspective that is if you're applying logical progression within the context of of uh like Christianity or something, and that's that's that's the scariest part about what for me anyway.
It's not I mean, yeah, because I mean if you look at a lot of these types of events, and it's not just Christianity, uh, it's also Judaism, even ancient Judaism, uh eating from the tree of knowledge. If you look at Enoch, it is the watchers coming down from heaven in order to teach humanity forbidden arts in addition to copulating with the daughters of man. And that kind of thing goes on. But it's not so much just knowledge in and of itself, it's knowledge of improper things, knowledge in which people should not have.
Now, whether we shouldn't have it or not is entirely open to the question, because we tend to view knowledge as if you have it, it's a good thing. If you don't have it, it's a bad thing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that we have oh, go ahead, Chris.
But Dane, you brought up an interesting point, well, with the whole concept of exposure to knowledge and all that stuff. And what I was thinking, this kind of just came to mind. When you're born as a baby, don't you kind of go back into that state? Because you're not born with any knowledge. You're not born with anything. So you're kind of thrust into the world. Yeah, in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Even if like you're exposed to certain things, you don't wholesale stick to them. And if you don't mind, I'll use you as an example, right?
You you were born and you were in an environment where at one point you were deep into your faith. I remember when I first met you, that was the case. And then you kind of just through your own discernment, you just broke off on your own and started asking questions and started doing this and different things, you know. Um that's you know, that just quickly came to mind.
Like it's funny that you just jumped like 400 years in philosophy right there. Because I mean, that was a major open question during the Middle Ages from Descartes onward. Are people tabla rasa, blank slates, or are we built? We are we born with certain innate knowledge, whether that's a priori or a posteriori in how we are shaped and then view the world?
Yeah, because I actually was literally talking about this with Willie maybe like a week ago. He asked me this question of do you think people are born inherently? Good or inherently evil. And I think it's, and my argument was it's it's objective that everyone's born with a blank slate, and then you become the product of your environment. And there are rare instances in which you don't become that, you become the opposite of it.
So, JJ, you in another parallel world, you could have been like this, you know, like Bible Belt priest that hates dungeons and dragons and all this other stuff, you know, as opposed to the way that you are now.
So J I want to revisit what Chris said about because I feel like you zooming to fanboys. I want to deep dive on uh a whole episode of that. But we should do a we should do a whole episode of like human proclivities that just shape, you know, like I think that would be a dark episode. You'd probably have to cut the whole thing.
It actually would be because I I mean I I see like especially for Japanese SNS, there are so many people that are obsessed by Japanese women who have armpit hair, or yes, you know, or people that are just obsessed with feet. I don't get it. I I'm like, what the fuck? Anyway, but that would be a fun topic. Hooves. I do like hooves. Why do you think I like goats so much?
Oh, you'll have so much editing to do. But indeed, your question got okay. I I wanna okay, switching back to the uh the topic of the demonic and and uh inviting that sort of thing in, I want to share this because I feel like it's really it's kind of rare in this life to have somebody experiencing and willing to talk about a transition from maybe benign religion exposure, you know, where you grow up Christian, but you kind of don't really get it.
And then you really dive into it and you really go deep into it and and you you completely take it in as your life, and then you come out of it again. Um, and the reason I want to talk about this really briefly is to give the perspective of how I felt at the time. And because I remember very vividly how I felt was very wrong giving it up. It felt very dark and it was very frightening. Um, and I still actually, creepily enough, I still know exactly where I was on the campus that Chris and I went to together, where I kind of switched my brain in a different direction.
And that moment is forever ingrained in my brain because it felt dark and sunny at the same time. And that was a very, very unique experience for me. But so I grew up Christian, I grew up Catholic, where my grandparents were ultra Catholic. That was the only answer, etc. And I went went to a lot of Catholic masses. And I even went myself when I first started driving. I would go to Catholic Mass by myself and I would, you know, go and I would just be there. And you know, my parents weren't really about going to church anymore. So I'm like, I'm gonna keep going.
And then I kind of just slowly petered away from that a little bit. And then when I got to college, um, I revisited Christianity by going to um Bible studies and stuff like that. And I really got into um closely with a group of people who were very uh, I would say almost um like like the type of people who their entire lives are waking up, the Bible, Christian music, don't consume anything else, that type of life.
And so my mentality and my thought pattern at the time was well, I grew up Christian, I grew up Catholic, I believe in it, and therefore, if that's the nature of existence for me, I should really lean into it. So I really leaned into it. I did the Bible reading every day, uh, I listened to Christian music all the time. I prayed over my food, like all that stuff. And it felt really difficult and it felt wrong, but it felt like I was my I try I attributed that to like the reason it felt wrong was because the devil or something was trying to keep me away from going down that path.
And I actually had a lot of weird experiences during that time where I'll just give you one quick one. I wanted to listen to mainstream music in my car, and suddenly the car radio switched from the mainstream radio to a Christian radio station without me touching it, and that really freaked me out. That really deeply disturbed me in the sense that, like, oh, I'm really getting close to the nature of this and stuff. So experiences like that drove me deeper and deeper. But and I've said this before on our uh Wandering Road podcast.
The thing, interestingly and hilariously enough, what kind of pushed me away from that ultra focus on Christianity was going to a Catholic university where we had to take different religion courses. So I learned about Judaism, I learned about Hinduism, Islam, and all the animism, animalism or whatever, like going all the way back, thousands of years of human history, and even all the way back to like, you know, when we first human humans first started coming up with the concept of God and the devil with, you know, so stuff like Zoriastrinism.
And so when I got exposed to that, I'm like, wait a minute. I have friends from other countries that I I really like and they have different religious perspectives and they're so kind and they they lean into their religion, but it's night and day to Christianity. So I'm like, why am I devoting time and energy into this when I think that there is different pathways or different perspectives? So when I made that strategic decision to break off and stop doing that ultra-Christian focus, I felt like I was getting dragged back into a negativity. So I don't even know what that was.
And because now it, like for the last, you know, 20 years since that happened, or 15 years since that happened, I feel great. Like I've and I've had so much positive good things happen in my life, blessings of you know, chill healthy children and uh good job and a home and all this stuff, living in Hawaii, and it's confusing because the gravity of what I experienced diving deep into Christianity was in a way like a good feeling, a heavy feeling. But when I got away from it, I still had a good experience with life.
So the reason I bring that up is because it all I could almost say that like I feel like I opened myself up to something negative and possibly even attracting attention to demonic when I started to pull away from Christianity. But now that I feel firmly rooted into kind of like a worldview where there's no cap on what religions could be true or false or whatever in the nature of existence, I feel much more free and happy than I I did when I was diving into Christianity. So I I don't know where that's gonna go from here with conversation wise.
I'm sure you guys have thoughts and stuff, but I'll I'll just pause there and um and get your your perspectives on on that experience. I feel like I puzzled, I I derailed the episode. I'm sorry.
No, no, no, no. You you did not. Uh that is a very valid point because I I too went through something like that. When I was in eighth grade, I got the chance to go on a missionary trip to the far flown country of Detroit, Michigan. And we stayed at a predominantly African American church, and we went out every day and did missionary work and tried to preach the gospel and did nothing but listen to Christian music and pray four or five hours a day, and I I really got into it and even got saved a second time during that trip, etc.
And when I came back, I began to see the hypocrisy shown by the preacher and the heretical views that were being espoused, and how kind of holier than thou the other congregants were, even kids my age or just a little bit older. And I backed away from that pretty hard. Was but I don't think that was a sign of opening yourself. It's just the more knowledge that you have, the the less. I don't really know where I'm going with this. The more knowledge you have.
Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah, I I I I I totally I totally see what you're saying. It's like the fear, so you built yourself up on this pedestal of um rituals and beliefs, and the nature of stepping away from that safe zone in and of itself causes psychological fear and and fear of failure, feeling of failure and tearing away from yourself. And um that I can see now, uh, I I would agree with that 100%. I I wouldn't say that's opening yourself up to something uh like you know, increasing your risk of exposing to negativity and and demonic.
I think it's just you're literally just stepping outside of your home that you stayed in for so long where it felt safe. And that feeling is the feeling that we went through. It wasn't something that was necessarily wrong. It was just a really terrifying fear because in, you know, the the thing that we were taught during those times of our lives is if you step away, if you turn your back away, you're in trouble. And that also reminds me of like what Chris was saying earlier about the nature of being born in a blank slate and stuff.
And one that there are very specific lines from the Bible that have stayed with me, and one of them is, and I I'm sure it's not verbatim, but it's something like when you go to heaven, you will return to being the state of children or something, or like you will become children again. And I know there's inter probably interpretations in that, but it it's like that that tearing away of the self that you built up is the negative feeling. It's not necessarily evil, it's just you're you're stepping into the unknown.
But I would say that the faith that I had then, and it's probably because I was a younger individual and didn't really know that much about subtlety, but the faith I had then was extremely loud. It was prominent, it was at the forefront of a lot of the crap that I did. And the faith that I have now is quiet. It's no less powerful than what it was, but yet, you know, it does form a very core part of who I am and my identity, but I don't feel the need to go out and loudly proclaim to the world, this is what I believe. It's just what I am.
I think if you have to do that, it's like you're trying to convince yourself that 100% believe that stuff. It's yeah, if you guys never watch Game of Thrones, there's there's a line where Joffrey says, I am the king, and his grandfather Tywin Lannister responds the man that has to say he is the king is no true king. It's on the lines of who are you trying to convince? Because your actions will determine what you believe and what you really think you are. And since Dean, Dean, you mentioned like there was a part of the Bible that you you know that stuck with you.
The one that sticks with me and I attribute it to a lot of people that I see on social media and stuff, it's it's I think it's in correct me if I'm wrong, JJ. It might be in Revelation, it might not be, but it says Christ comes back, and then the people that goes go to him and they say, Did I not worship in your name? Did I not do this for you? And he's like he like turns away from them. He like tosses them away. He's like, You didn't I didn't know, I don't know you because you never did that for me. You did it for yourself. You did it for performative reasons.
You did it like these these preachers do that go, they have these millions of dollars and they're going to ask for donations.
So you could buy a Rolls-Royce, like Christ demands that I travel in a private jet.
Man, yeah, like that dipshit that was asking to see people's tax returns. I'm like, what the hell's wrong with you? And I have a gripe with the Catholic Church with the amount of fucking wealth that they have. 10% you're talking about like giving to the poor and stuff. You could inflate the world economy if you wanted to with how much gold and treasures that you have.
Do that. You got that right. Yeah, and I mean, just talking about tax returns, shit. If you I mean, that's not true. That's not just true for televangelists, it's true for a lot of Catholic congregations, especially if they happen to run a school in which your kids go to. You're required to prove what your income is, match whatever the minimum requirement is, and so that your kids can go there. And it's just it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's the world is full of hypocrisy, you know.
But I guess the tie back in, I think, to the topic that we were talking, we're talking about today. How interestingly enough, the three of us, based off of our upbringing, kind of broke out of our shells and we're now in this mindset of I know what I believe, I don't have to prove it to you.
So to pull it back to the, you know, things being demonic and stuff like that, just because you came out of your shell, you started exploring things a little bit, you were curious and a little bit analytical, you know, you wanted to do some research, and you, for example, looked into, I don't know, JJ, you did an episode previously about names of demons, right? Just because you look that up doesn't mean you're gonna go start summoning them. I mean, if you start doing that, then that's your problem. You're kind of shit out of luck.
But just because, you know, certain things are labeled with demon in the name, or they have these scary-looking monsters on the cover, or anything of that sort, anything creative, it it it's not something you should automatically brand as demonic or evil just because you don't like the way it looks, or you don't take the time to understand the concept of it, what it's trying to convey.
And don't in fact, that is its own danger. If you see evil lurking in every single bloody shadow, then you're never going to recognize when it actually comes up and bites you in the face. Yeah, I think 100%.
Yeah. An additional perspective, and kind of touching back on the psychological conversation we had earlier, I feel like by nature of humans, we want to face the things that will hurt us or kill us the most, or some, you know, a lot of people do, not everybody, but there's a tendency to want to do that. And it it's in the same vein as like like whenever someone is. I just saw a video recently of someone um talking about how they had throat cancer.
And she was talking about how when she told people she had throat cancer, all the things they would list off about um they the things they thought caused it for her. It's like, oh, do you smoke? Nope, don't smoke. Well, maybe it was your makeup. Well, no, uh, you know, it's not makeup, you know, whatever. She's going down the list, right?
And then really, like her perspective on that was well, really what they're doing is they're asking you the things they're they're running things across you to find out what caused your cancer so they themselves can check and see the things they do if that's going to cause cancer for their throat. And so that kind of goes back to the idea of visiting the demonic or even just religion in general, the curiosity. It's like, oh, I need to like really figure out what can really destroy me and the highest question and like destroy my soul forever.
Like that's terri, that's the penultimate terrifying thing, right? So I need to go see this, I need to go experience this for myself so I could figure out how to defeat it, or I could figure out if there's a way to stop it. But that's kind of counterintuitive, right? Like Chris was saying, like, oh, I'm gonna piss off this guy because someone's saying he's gonna stab me in the neck, but I want to see for myself if I could stop being stabbed in the neck. And so I think that's where a true danger of human psychology comes into play with the demonic when people are trying to explore it.
You might have the greatest intentions ever deep down about figuring out how to defeat it, maybe even not just for yourself or other people, but then you ultimately walked yourself into a bear den, and you're really, you really are gonna find out, oh, I'm not gonna be able to do this on my own. I'm not gonna be able to defeat this or whatever. And so I think that's to me, that is one of the the ultimate entryways into exposing yourself to something truly evil or demonic, is just out of the nature of wanting to prevent it from happening, which is kind of like silly, right?
It's like, man, that's that's that's too much. That's heavy.
It is, but it's also, I think, as um the satanic panic has really kind of taught those who have looked at it is the more you ascribe to the infernal, the less responsibility you have for all the bad things that are going on in your life. You know, if you're cheat and then say, oh, the demon of lust must have gotten you. No, it was your dumbass who went out and did it. You can't attribute this. Yeah, if you do bad shit, it's because you did bad shit, not because you know something made you do it.
It was Pazuzu.
Don't even get it. Or Zozo.
Zozo.
Zozo, yeah. Alrighty. Well, I think we have brought this home and it's been a phenomenal conversation. Chris and Dean, where can people find y'all at?
Yeah, so you can find The Wandering Road on pretty much every major podcast platform. Just search for The Wandering Road. We are also on video, on YouTube, and on Spotify. So if you prefer to watch video episodes and look at our ugly faces, you can find this there. If you would like to be on the show, you can reach us at TWroadpodcast at gmail.com. We have people reaching out to us and we always enjoy interfacing with the community, whether you have a question, a comment, whatever, or you want to be on the show, share your story.
Want to remain anonymous, share your story, and we could make an episode out of it and read it on the show. We've done that quite a few times with some listener stories. So if that's something that interests you, go ahead and reach out to us at our email address. We're also on social media. You could find us on our Facebook page, just search for The Wandering Road. Um, we're more active on Instagram now.
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