Demonology 201

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Wandering Road Podcast. I'm your host, Chris, alongside my co-host Dean, and joining us for today's conversation is JJ from Southern Demonology. And for today's show, class is back in session with Demonology 102. And for today, we are going to be talking about demonic possession. But before we get started with today's show, if you would like to be on the show or you would like to submit your stories to us, please reach us at TWroadpodcast at gmail.com.

And also, we now have a new feature available on Apple Podcast where you can send us a text message. So if you want to reach us that way, pull up the episode, click on the send text message option, and you can reach us that way as well. Either way, we just want you to reach out to us. We would love to hear from you and we would love to hear your stories and have you on as a guest in the show. Again, our email address is twroadpodcast at gmail.com. And with that, we will start today's show. So, JJ, we are back for another discussion on the demonic.

This one I decided to cheesily dub as demonology 102 with specifically focusing on demonic possession.

No one ever accused you of being originals. That's what we all strive to be. No, you can now call me Professor for the rest of this conversation.

Okay, Dr. Johnson. Dean is looking at us like we're both crazy.

But JJ, did you Did you happen to hear the 101 episode, Dean?

I did. I thought it was a great one. And I was gonna say that I think instead of 102, you guys should dub it this one 201 because I think it's a little bit, it's like kind of getting into the advanced level because or 101 was pretty good. I think 101 was pretty comprehensive for somebody who doesn't really know a lot about it. So I think you guys are spot on with taking it to the next level.

201 it is then. I like it. Yes, sir. But to recap for the listeners, if you did not get a chance to listen to that episode, it's titled Demonology 101, and it is episode 57. But to quickly recap, we uh JJ and I, we kind of went through discussing the basics of demonology, what demonology is, what to avoid, what to look out for. We had a few interesting rants here and there, but overall it was a good conversation. So if you want to go back and listen to that episode before you listen to this one, we highly recommend it.

Or if you just want to jump straight into this one, we welcome that as well.

But Yeah, we have no barriers for entry here.

Nope, not at all. It's at your own leisure. But demonic possession, Professor JJ, why don't you give us a quick rundown of what that means?

There are essentially four different categories that you can separate demonic influence into. And some only say that there are two, but we'll get into that. There is demonic obsession, which is kind of stage one, there is demonic oppression, which is a stage two, demonic possession, which is extremely rare, which is a stage three, and then the most rare of them all, a perfect possession.

I do have things to respond to that as an outsider questioning or asking questions about what he said, so it's not it'll it it'll be it'll add to the conversation for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. Go for it.

So I've actually, JJ, I have never heard that depth of explanation about different types of demonic possessions. And I I like we've talked before, we've had you on before, we've been on your show and stuff before, but like I've never heard that depth of breaking down to the different layers. So I my initial thought just as something to share, if you guys want to reflect reflect on it deeply, is when you talk about these possessions, you're talking about an an entity that is outside the direct sphere of human existence, right?

So even if it's influenced by human existence, there's still an external factor to it. So like when you talk about the worst possible demonic possession, which is just straight up possession, like you said, but there's also like you know the the the levels of influence that go on as well that are not direct possession, so to speak. What in your mind or or your experience, what drives those tertiary influences?

Like because like the way I think about it is like you have a good person, you have a bad person, like as an example, you have good people, you have bad people, and you have some people who try to be good, but they get a little bit kind of like sidetracked and they do some shitty sh shitty stuff to other people. So I imagine it's the same with like demons, like you know, like demons, some demons are like more tame, they're not really completely into the whole evil thing, but then there are some demons who are completely into taking possession of people.

And I'm sure that's completely wrong, but like I just wanted to throw that idea out there as a as a node for discussion more deep deeply into how possessions work and how demonology is understood.

That's a good point. So let's take it, let's back up a little bit and give a little bit more foundational knowledge. So let's dip back into the 101 level of stuff here. So I think it's going to be important. And it then quickly dovetails into the kind of stuff that we're talking about. Humans have an innate protection against possession, and that would be free will. They can think for themselves, they have no issues with that, and that essentially forms a nice neat little barrier that disallows for this type of stuff.

The issue comes into play in that the demonic are really, really bloody good at minimizing and or eliminating free will. And at the end of the day, that is what possession is all about.

If you're talking about this from an Abrahamic state of mind, and that's what I'm approaching all of this in, then the demonic is there to absolutely corrupt and putrefy humanity because they were created in the image of God, and they were therefore, even though we are much weaker, uh according to the way it goes, we are put above the angels, or at least that was how if we're talking about Christianity, that's how Lucifer interpreted it, and as a result, if you actually go back to kind of the root of where this idea spawned from, which is Zoroastrianism, which permeated into Judaism and then directly influenced Christianity, not just in the beginning, but even now in how it viewed things.

There is a passage which talks about Ahriman, the enemy, who is spitting at Hura Mazda from the dark realm, saying, I will turn your creatures against you, I will make them hate you, because there is nothing greater to the enemy than to corrupt the creatures of that entity and make them abhor them. And that's where this whole idea of the world belongs to the devil. I'm sure you've heard that many a time. I most certainly did growing up in a Protestant church or series of Protestant churches.

And that's where that really comes from, is from that idea that the enemy has gained control of this world so that it has free will. And to be completely honest, it provides a very convenient answer to why is there evil in the world, right? Something that a lot of places like to at least avoid or minimize that kind of question. If the devil controls this world, then hey, that kind of you know gives us a free pass in trying to answer that. Did that even come close to answering what you were talking about?

That's really fascinating. Like I never thought about the multiple perspectives that there are layers to not just like our side of reality, but like the other side. That's what I'm most fascinated by is when you're talking about demonology and the demons that occupy the other side of the realm, looking down on our realm, thinking of us as beings that are less than them, but like less deserving, but also how humans are supposed to be more connected to the divine in the sense that we're created in the image of God. I really think that's a fascinating story.

But the thing that I invariably go towards when I hear that is all of the other creation stories that exist in in humanity. So I guess like unless Chris wants to jump in with something to kind of go off of the tangent or go off on a different line that that JJ was talking about or from what JJ was talking about. Like I my next question would be what types of demonology examples from different religions would tie into the narrative that you just brought up?

Like that's that's I mean, that's just me as we can cut this out, but like me as like somebody who is not completely subscribed to that idea would be like open-mindedly uh questioning or just wondering how that could play out into different narratives of different societies, different religions. And you, JJ, you might be the perfect person to ask because you have so much knowledge and you know, study experience or or ac academic experience experience looking into different religions and stuff. So like what's your next step beyond the metaphysical for demonology and like Judeo-Christianity?

Is there anything that that ties into outside of that or or are you kind of just like just shut off or just stopping at that point that you brought up earlier in terms of like what you've seen from the text you've read?

There are some similarities. For example, in Islam, there are jinn, which there can be good jinn, there can be bad jinn. In Christianity, there are no good demons, there's even no apathetic demons. These are just things that are completely out to crush you. And in Judaism, you have kind of the exact same uh thing that's going on. Because the original concept was you have an angel, one angel that is leading each of the 70 nations. If the other nations are ganging up on Israel and beating the crap out of them, then there must be bad angels as a result, right?

And that's kind of where this entire concept of fallen angels even kind of erupted from in that regard. There are aspects of Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, in which deals with the realm of devils, the realm of hungry ghosts. There are some parallels there, although they're obviously radically different in how they operate. So I don't think that there are any direct comparisons that you can really draw across the board, besides the fact saying there are bad things out there that are trying to influence people in some fashion or other.

And just for the record, I absolutely refute anything to do with universal myths that Joseph Campbell, the idiot of all idiots, proposed. But that is my I've never been known for my strong opinions.

So well, for for my own edification as an outsider, what is that Joseph Campbell concept?

He sat there and wrote about how you know there are so many similarities between different cultures. There must be a underlying universal mythos that people tap into in order to craft their stories, and that is the entire concept.

And of course, he expounds upon it ad nauseum at length in order to draw it out, and there are people that just go absolutely gaga for the idea, and I will admit it is appealing, but that's kind of presupposing that there is a metaphysical ether floating about which people can just randomly tap into the bards and the storytellers of all you know ages, of all races, of all cultures, can just you know pluck a harp string and suddenly conjure forth the spirits of whatever ancient bards happen to be there and then regale humanity with it's just it's kind of idiotic.

So what you're saying is you hate the Baha'i religion. That's my sorry, that's my I'm just trying to be an asshole. Like the spinning, like that that's that I was just trying to be an asshole, but like like sp you know, like how they do the spin, like, oh, you hate this Baha'i, like you hate the religion, but like the Baha'i religion is kind of like that, right? Where like they try to like bring all of that together. Is that is that correct?

Because Chris and I learned about that when we were going to the same university where we took the same classes, but like the Baha'i religion is similar, right? Where like they're trying to have an amalgamation of all the different perspectives of reality and religion and stuff like that. Like, is that s is that kind of going along the lines of what you were saying, or is that a different perspective?

I honestly have no idea. I don't know anything about the Baha'i religion.

Oh, okay. So yeah, like I don't know, Chris. Like we can add on to this if you want to or cut it out. It's regardless, it doesn't matter, but hospital past. Hospital past. Yeah, so uh essentially like the Baha'i religion, like they they still believe in one true God, but and the only way to to know God is through studying all of the religions that talk about all the different perspectives of a monotheistic religion.

So like you talk about Judaism, Islam, Christianity, they all talk about like the one true God, but there's also aspects from different religions like Hinduism and stuff, and I think even a little bit of Buddhism, but they try to amalgamate all of these concepts that humanity is the one that gets all of the negative aspects wrong about different religions.

The only thing that's prevailing is the positivity across all of their religions, which is Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Buddhism, all that Jainism, Sikhism, Hinduism, they all talk about love and acceptance and equilibrium and all that stuff, like there's only one true beauty to the universe, and that's the only thing that we should be focusing on. So they kind of cherry pick, so to speak, in my understanding, to bring that knowledge to the forefront of humanity.

And I it it's not really like obviously it's clearly it's not an old religion, but it's a religion that tries to bring together all of those aspects that have positive effects on humanity as opposed to the negative aspect aspects of like demonology or hell or any kind of pr negative permanence of reality.

So that's why I bring it up, is because like that's exactly what JJ was was talking about, where there's some kind of negativity to bringing about all of bringing all of these religions, the positive aspects together to where they kind of circumvent or obfuscate the negative aspects that are equally as important to consider.

I empathize with that motive, and I think that you can see a weird kind of tug of war going on even within Christianity, because we have this overwhelming message of love, and yet a lot of Christians will use the Bible to absolutely segregate people and give reasons as to why you shouldn't like X person or even worse, X group of people, or much worse, descend into like Christian nationalism, which is antithetical to the overriding bottom message of Christianity, correct? So I understand having that guiding light of wanting to aspire.

The problem is the world is not just a friendly, loving place. It is filled with negative influences and with negative forces. If you try to deny hell, then you are doing a disservice not only to the reality of this world and potentially the next, but even worse, you are leaving people undefended. And I think that's probably the greatest sin that the modern Catholic Church has propagated by wanting to distance itself away from the right of exorcism, from the idea that hell is a true place. It has abandoned a lot of its old teachings around knowing the enemy.

And as a result, it has opened up a lot of chinks in our armor in order to allow us to protect ourselves from the enemy.

That's yeah. I mean, 100% fascinating. And and and I have to add, like, I have to add something that JJ or even Chris, like you guys may have come across over the last few years, but like when I was younger, one thing that that I am remembering is that somebody told me in my Catholic faith, my Catholic uh upbringing, is that whenever somebody doesn't believe in God or doesn't believe in in Satan or the or the devil or hell or whatever, you were literally rejecting the narrative of God.

So when you go to quote unquote hell, you're just basically occupying a space that is away from God, and eventually you're going to come to see that it's better to be closer to God, which in the concept of religion, God is love, God is acceptance, God is equilibrium and peace and wholeness and feeling like the best possible way you could possibly be, like your ultimate self, right? So if somebody rejects God, I've heard someone tell me in in the past, you're literally just not seeing the full face of God.

But when you do see that full face eventually as a human, there's no way for you not not to accept it. It would it would be like it would be like You traveling through the desert and you're dying of thirst, right? And somebody comes to you right before you die and say, Here is a picture of the coldest glass of water that will sustain your life, that will feel so good, that will be amazing. If you are a rational human being, which all of us should be based off of the concept of God, you will take that drink of cold water, right? Like it's just it's inherent in your acceptance as a human being.

But if you don't see that, if you don't have that presence in front of you, if you don't experience that pain, then you're not gonna, you know, there are some people who are not gonna want to accept it. So in my mind personally, and I'm I was gonna save this for the conversation with Father Birdsong, because this is me as, you know, like I I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm not trying to be like, you know, smart assy or whatever, but like this is why I'm not wholly Christian. This is why I'm not wholly Catholic.

It's because I believe that everybody, whatever stage of life they're in, no matter what level of suffering, no matter how like Chris and I we talked about like you know, Billy, crooke eyed cooker, whatever, like he basically was brought up in the worst possible circumstances as even a baby, like even as a one-year-old, he was set on a trajectory of the worst possible life, and he made the decisions he did.

But at the end of the day, I think that every single person will ultimately be presented with that choice between drinking the water in the desert or starving or or or dying or being dry mouthed to death for lack of a better term. So it's just like like I don't know, what what's your what's your perspective on that? Do you think do you think that that's possible that everybody will ultimately after this life be able to face that? Or do you think that this is the only life that we have the chance to make our decisions to end up in the good place?

I think that takes us down the realm of potential reincarnation, if that makes sense. Just based off of what you just said. Well, we have other chances. Like if you don't learn your lesson in this life, will you have to do it all over again to learn your lesson? I don't know if that's what you were trying to get at, Dean. Is that what you're referring to? Or did I misunderstand that?

No, yeah, you you hit the nail on the head. Like I what I'm getting after as somebody as as someone who is trying to be respectful and and understand how the progression of these thoughts work in terms of hell and heaven and what we're supposed to do in this life, I still I still think that we're here to learn a lesson. But at the end of the day, I there are so many different wide breadths of perspective for different religions that I have such a hard time believing that this is the only place in existence where we have the opportunity to choose good from bad.

We're deal like we're talking, I I know we're getting off the tangent of demonology, but to tie it back into demonology, it's like if demons exist, they are trying to subvert us from our true being, like all of the goodness that we exist, like it exists in the world or whatever. But there are so many different religions, like JJ said, have different types of evil entities that might relate to or be indicative of the demons that might exist in Christianity.

So like if you think about it from an outside perspective, it's hard for me to accept the fact that we're here in such a limited capacity in this realm that we won't be able to continue that life lesson beyond here and now. Like, you know, like beyond what we're experiencing now. So if we die in the worst possible sin, that's it.

But I think there's too much obfuscation, there's too much uh hiccups, there are too many there are too many aspects to human experience that can negatively influence the trajectory of someone's life that could just mess things up to the point where it wouldn't be fair that somebody like you know did the things they did and they ended up in hell, so to speak, forever.

But I mean like it it's based off of what they did and whether they made the choice to do that, because we all come back to what JJ said earlier, it's free will. We all have the choice to make our decision. Whether it is demonically influenced or not, the most you would say the most I I guess radicalized Catholic would say that every sin is some form of demonic oppression. Am I correct in that statement, JJ?

Like every sin that you make, it's that I I don't know. Now there are a lot of, and I mean more than you could shake a stick at, evangelical branches of the Protestant church that were turn everything into a demon. Oh, I lusted after my neighbor's wife, the demon of lust has suddenly beset me. I think that is absolute bullshit.

Like the demon of nicotine in you, like dude.

That is I I fully embrace my my bellow demon. What did we what did you nickname him?

Belfel. The demon, the demon of smoking.

He's the demon that likes to sit on a toilet, which is also very indicative of me. So I like it. He is my namesake. Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay. But I mean, if you're coming from a Catholic perspective, this isn't really the only existence that you have to be able to learn your lesson, so to speak. Yeah, purgatory. If you have accumulated debt and you need to work it off to learn a lesson, then there's a whole nother realm of being able to do that.

And I'm telling you, coming from a Protestant background to a Catholic one, and suddenly being introduced to the idea of purgatory and to the Apocrypha, that that was interesting. That was a very interesting thing.

Oh yeah, I I get it, man. I I do want to segue into more of a discussion about the demonic itself with regards to possession. I think that the points that Dean brought up are great for people that may have questions about this and may have the same questions that he asked, which I think I think we Oh, yeah.

They are fantastic questions because it is the question, the age-old question of nature versus nurture, right? And if it's a nurture-based system, if we are a tabla rasa, a blank slate when we are born, and a person is putting into a very negative life, or maybe not a negative life, but they grew up poor, they were challenged, they didn't have nearly the opportunities that someone else might have, that came from a rich family and went to boarding schools and had everything handed to them. Is one inherently more likely to choose good over not good?

I mean, and that's worthwhile of not just one episode, but an entire bloody episode, you know, series of episodes, if you even begin to scratch the surface on it.

It's all circumstantial when you get to that point, and it's all based on the individual and how they are as a person. Exactly. So that makes it difficult.

But if you want to get back to the main topic, the word obsession, we said that there are four categories, and let's just take categories one and two, which is obsession and oppression. An obsession may seem like a weird term to apply. You're not stalking an X, you're not demanding the same food over and over again, and you won't eat anything but that. Obsession in this case actually comes back to the Latin obsidiare, which means to besiege.

And essentially, this is when a demonic entity is attempting to influence your life and make it much more difficult, but really the true path is to then minimize your free will so that it can launch into full possession.

JJ, and I'm sorry. Yeah, I have to ask, I don't mean to cut you off. Or you were probably going into this anyway. How would one know that they are dealing with demonic obsession in that sense?

It's a fantastic question. And I wish you could say that, oh, if you go outside at night and you see a crow hanging in the tree, then you know it's demonic obsession or oppression or whatever. Not it's not anywhere near that clear cut. Like, for example, if someone is in a haunted location and they are experiencing very negative side effects from being in that locale, how can they know? And there's a few different ways that may be indicative of that particular situation.

If there are religious artifacts or icons that are in the house and it causes the activity to dramatically escalate, that is usually a very clear sign that you're dealing with the demonic. If you are dealing with massive shifts in temperature whenever there is a potential activity that is occurring, that could be a sign. And then another one would be let's say that you call out a paranormal researcher and they decide to burn sage in order to try to cleanse the room of negative energy, and it doesn't help. In fact, it makes it a heck of a lot worse.

That is usually a wonderful sign that you're dealing with the demonic.

So, JJ, quick question. So I I've been on your show, I I told you my experiences. I didn't share much on here just because I I don't know, I just don't I never thought about you know creating an episode talking about what I dealt with growing up in that home. But there were a few things that I can divulge that maybe fall into maybe a couple of these categories.

Potentially Well, I I would before you launch into that, I can almost for sure tell you that what you were dealing with was of the infernal that was entirely too dark, and like it's almost a complete checklist for what you experienced to what was fit my my pattern pretty gosh darn well.

Right. So, for example, I'll I'll give one recent example, which I find very creepy, and I don't know if this falls under oppression or obsession. One of my earlier episodes, it might have been like somewhere between episode 20 and 25. I was talking to my cousin Cassandra about her personal paranormal experiences, and then we got into the topic of the home that I that I lived in for almost 10 years. And I don't know if I shared this on Southern Demonology, but what this is like I we give our a raw reaction on the show. I left it in that episode as well.

My cousin, who lives across the street from the home, kind of like a few houses down and across the street, he calls me and I ignore the call because you know I'm recording at the time. I can't really talk. So literally not a minute later, and this is all while we're talking about her experiences in that home, I get a text message with a picture of him in his vehicle taking a selfie with that home, saying, Guess where I'm parked up in front of right now?

I figured you'd want to know is that coincidence that I got that message the same time my cousin was telling her stories about what she experienced in that home? And where would you categorize that in these four demonic possession categories?

That would definitely be obsession. So go ahead.

And when we say obsession, are we talking about in the sense that they're obsessed with one person or are they obsessed with a group of people that lived in that home?

Or no, this this is about a complete besiegement. Really, you can substitute the word obsession for besiegement, and you have what it is truly trying to get down toward. The difference between obsession and oppression is that oppression involves the physical. Because it's not like, oh, if you're only dealing with this, then you're okay, but if it goes into this next stage, then you're really in trouble. No, no, no. If you are dealing with either stage one or two, you have a problem on your hands. There is no warning shots when it comes to the demonic.

It is either you are in full-fledged danger or you're not.

Yeah. Can you, JJ? This is like feel free to just say, I don't fucking know. We can cut this out if you want to. This is like I'm like literally, this is just for my own edification out of curiosity, because I don't get to talk to people like you very often.

I think the most interesting aspect for me personally from that perspective is when you talk about somebody like like Chris, you're giving the example of your cousin showing up at the house that you grew up in with all this these crazy things happening at a time that just happened to be around when like somebody was texting you about the particular house.

So like you're talking about circumstances that play out, right, where multiple people are in play, and JJ was kind of offering the idea that this could be demonic obsession, to where like presumably the demon is obsessed with you, like they're trying to integrate into your life and trying to kind of mess things up from different different perspectives of humanity. So, like, not just you, but but multiple people in your life, right? So, my question would be how does that factor into free will?

Because if you if you pay attention to a previous podcast, one of my questions to Chris that when he brought this similar story up or this this story up was when your cousin showed up across the street from your old house and he texted you, that means that your cousin was in the process of going to that house at that time long before you even had that conversation. Right? So there had to have been like a marrying up of timelines to where his, you know, your cousin showed up, you were having that conversation, you were reflecting on things that happened in the past to that house.

No, he was actively in front of the home while we were talking about it. Because he sent me the picture and he texted me saying, I am parked in front of there right now, I am still here. I figured I'd let you know.

But what I'm saying is you were having that conversation at the time where he would have had to have been traveling to that house. He wasn't just magically in front of that house, right? Like he he would have had to have traveled to that house to have that conversation with you through text at that point in time.

I mean, driving 20, 20 feet down the road, I don't think that consists as traveling far, but I guess yeah, but still, statistically speaking, for him to reach out to you, he was still he he doesn't text you every day to the point where he's saying, like, oh, I'm in front of that house, right?

Like this is this is a rare circumstance, is what I'm saying. So in order for things to line up the way that they did, if it was demonic obsession, then there there would have had to have been some kind of strategic execution of actions from the demonic side before you got to that point.

So to me, that says that disrupts free will, because the the demon would have had to have said to your cousin, go to this house, you know, at this time, subliminally not in front of you, in terms of like saying, like, you know, not not trying to say to your cousin directly, but like to the point where, you know, telling him you need to be in front of this house, you need to say this, you need to call your cousin, say these things, etc. That to me just takes away from the free will that we supposedly inhabit.

I wouldn't say that. So in this particular case, we know that the demonic can either be locked to either place or time, and let's assume that it is time in this instance. Just because Chris is relaying something, and then it because it is in locked in that place, then decides to send an urge to an impressionable individual. And I'm not implying that's what your cousin is, because please don't take it like that. That doesn't mean that the person who received the urge could not have done it, but they're like, oh, they didn't see a reason not to.

I mean, and that's kind of the reason why knowing whether something is true obsession or besiegement or not is so difficult because it's rare that um, I'm sure you've heard the phrase gross display of power. It's not the most common thing in the world for the infernal to display such gross displays of power, they'd rather do it in a much more economical and ambiguous way. But I don't think that minimizes free will. If uh I wouldn't say it it supports it either, but it's not a refutation of that, I'll put it that way.

Just because someone has an urge does not mean that they need to act upon that urge.

So, what you're saying is Chris's cousin didn't necessarily have to be influenced by that decision to go drive that direction at that time and make that call or that text to let him know he was in front of that house at that time.

Is that I just want to understand not shooting holes at all because I think that I'm No, you're welcome to shoot holes because I'm uh uh if I may, Dean, if I may, yeah. Uh and I know we have other categories to get to, uh, folks, but we we will get to them, don't worry. So I talk to that cousin like frequently, like a few times a week. I talk to him, and he lives literally across the street from the house.

So he lives like maybe five houses down and across the street, and not once did he send me a picture of it or anything in months, but at that instance, I just find it weird that he felt the need to park in front of the home, take a picture, and then send it to me because he's never done that before, and it's one of those cases where it's like, what the fuck? If I was like sitting there watching like the Liverpool game or something, and he sends me a text message and it's like, hey, look where I'm at. I'm like, okay, whatever.

But the fact that that was happening at the same time is where I just it's one of those things, like they say things that make you go, hmm, what perfect timing for that to happen. Happen. What perfect timing.

Yeah, and that just kind of shows the ambiguity once again. But if that truly was so in Japanese, we call that a guzen, you know, a complete coincidence. But if it wasn't a coincidence, it shows a level of intelligence, of knowledge, of being not just in contact with your cousin or that particular area, but also knowing what you're doing. And that makes it a heck of a lot more frightening. And of course, you know, it violates every kind of underlying principle of Occam's razor, where we're going to pick the more simple explanation in order to go about it.

But given the other experiences that you've had, especially when it comes to religious artifacts and prayers that your mom did in that locale, and how things seem to be extremely concentrated in one room with a lot of darkness and shadows that would permeate the place. I would definitely point to this as a case of besiegement pretty clearly.

I mean, I just have such I have such a problem with the idea that free will exist in a realm where we could be so drastically influenced in a way that Yeah, or a moth to a flame, right? Like if you if you have somebody who has the capability of understanding what a moth is attracted to and you have the capability of generating a flame, you've already w won twice over the moth. Like you not only do you have the thing to draw the moth, you also know that the moth is interested in that thing.

So it just seems like if there was a true loving God for humanity, why would anybody be subject to such influence? And if they are subject to such influence, what do they get more of a pass than the rest of us? Like when they get to the other side, when they die, like even if they committed the worst crime, right? If they were influenced from a demonic side and they just succumb to the idea of moth to a flame, like how could you blame them? Like how could you make it a scenario to which they deserve eternal hell? Like that's just I I just can't buy that. I just can't.

And I'm sorry, like I'm maybe you have a different perspective, but like that's just it's it's it's like when you have a child and you put chocolate in front of them and you're like, hey, you can either eat this chocolate now or I'll give you a cake later. Like they don't understand the concept of getting a cake later. Like they're gonna eat the chocolate now, you know what I mean? Like it's not something that can be dispelled from their trait as a person, as a human being. So how can they be held responsible for eating the chocolate now versus taking the cake later? I I don't know.

I just it just upsets me that that that could be possible. So like I don't know, like what's your perspective as a Christian or Catholic in terms of that perspective, in terms of like like how limited humans are and how out of control we are in terms of what is good versus what is bad, if that makes sense.

It does, but what you're talking about is kind of blurring the line over into theodicy.

Okay. What is theodicy just to just to be clear?

It's the justification of God.

Okay.

How can God exist if A, B, or C happens to be in the world? Like, for example, let me tell you a story, and this was actually in a book, and I ran across this when I was in college and was writing a paper on theodicy, and it has fascinated me ever since. Two explorers are in the desert, and they come across an immaculate garden. Everything has its place, everything is in neat rows, and one explorer says, There must be a caretaker for this garden. There must be a gardener, it's just too perfect for there not to be. And how could a garden exist in the middle of the desert without one?

And the other one goes, Well, do you see a gardener anywhere? We've walked all over this place. There is no gardener. So they set up surveillance while living off from the land, and for a week they observe if they can find a gardener, and they don't. There's no trace whatsoever. The second explorer goes, Well, see, there's no one here. And the first one goes, Ah, the gardener must be invisible. So they set up infrared cams, they send out sniffer dogs, do everything in their power to try to find something that can't be seen with the eyes for another week. Again, nothing.

And the second one goes, see, that was preposterous, but I entertain your delusion. There is no gardener. And the first explorer goes, Ah, but he must not only be invisible, but also undetectable and unknowable. And the second explorer simply poses the question, what's the difference between that and no gardener at all?

That's really I like you know what's interesting is I actually remember that you brought that up. I I now remember hearing that same story. And just to be fair, like I like I love this conversation between us. I would never ever try to shoot holes in anybody whatsoever. But one idea that would would throw back to that is if you're talking about a God that is not present in the creation of the garden, right? Like that's that's really what the narrative is getting after.

But you can't unmarry that from the idea that in the Judeo-Christian faith, you have a God that is supposed to be influencing and directing the narrative of human life and goodness and all of that, all of the things that that make us peaceful and loving, everything that that really linchpins all of the major religions, which is love, understanding, patience, kindness, etc. When you're just talking about a garden though, like you're just talking about stumbling a cart upon a garden of creation where, for instance, was it Thomas Jefferson?

I think he was one of the original more modern examples of someone who is really intelligent, really exposed to human culture in terms of creating the outcome of American society and how things pr progress uh up until today. I think he was a proponent for having an idea that a god could have created existence outside of what we experience today. So like you have a creator that doesn't have a direct influence on us, it's kind of just like a experiment external, so to speak. So it's I think of the same thing.

So like if you have a creator of a garden where there's no metaphysical, deeply embedded narrative of humanity that we experience day-to-day as people, then there's something missing there in the broader discussion of Judeo-Christianity and especially in terms of demonology to tie it back. It's like if we are so if we are so exposed and so predisposed and capable of being corrupted by forces that are not good, then that conversation about how a creator of a garden, without the whole philosophical or sociological narrative about good versus evil, it becomes kind of moot, right?

Like it's where it's like you can have something who is all powerful creating a garden, but if you don't have the rules of the garden and talk about that, then that kind of like negates the idea that we could be subjugated and suppressed in terms of goodness as a human being. I'm probably getting way too convoluted and complex for the conversation, but like did did I touch on enough about the like the goodness of humanity versus the idea that God is just a creator kind of aspect? Like that's what I was really getting after in terms of the garden analogy.

Yeah, yeah, no, you did. I mean, and yeah, there was a a rampant belief in the intellectual class at that time that believed that God was only the creator, and then after he had set everything into motion, then took a step back, or you can kind of see a modern version of that even within the beautifully done Futurama episode. Love it, where Bender is talking to uh you know a star constellation that can speak and purports to be God, goes, Well, if you do your job well enough, then people don't need to believe that you exist, or something along those lines.

It was always a very that and the dog episode are by and far the two best that always makes me cry.

Oh my god.

Oh gosh, yes, I cannot watch that episode, it kills me. Which is just a retelling of Hachigo, the Japanese dog.

I gotta look that up. I've never heard that story. Hachigo? Hachigo, okay.

Okay, yeah, for like 18 years, and in fact, the biggest kind of uh tourist spot is the Hachigo statue in Shibuya, and that's where a lot of people go and wait for people in which they're you know looking for it.

Guys, you see, that's all you have to do to be successful in this life, to be rich, is just copy shit that happened a hundred years ago, and like you know, that's what Fichurama did. They just took a story from Shibuya from Japan, and no one never knew about it, and just copy it.

So, JJ, I wanted to ask, is oppression and obsession kind of similar, or what are what are the stark differences between you can boil it down to the idea that obsession is merely lacking a physical component, and that is true, but there is another aspect where it can this type of influence can cause one to fixate upon the unholy. And if we go to uh uh Father Belmonte, he says that a demon is able to quote communicate obsessive thoughts or images that are at times rationally absurd to the victim's mind, i.e., the imagination and to memory, uh, but which they are not able to ward off.

End quote. And that's you know, as I said in my episode, which I think it's episode 28 in the Southern Demonology catalog, I had said that, and that's different than psychological neurosis, such as OCD. Mental obsession can be obsidious in that the beleaguered person can be bombarded with either unholy imagery or the impulse to do bodily harm to oneself or to others.

I would kind of, if you've happened to listen to episode one of season five, where I dictated the three demonic dreams that I had very recently, I would absolutely classify that as demonic obsession that bordered on oppression because those dreams caused physical pain. And then if when you get into oppression, Father Belmonte said that it's like quote, physical aggressions of demons against a person, which may manifest in burns, scratches, bites, beatings, and blows that leave bruises, swelling, bloody sores, or bone fractures.

Some have experienced letters, words, or symbols appearing as incisions on their skin. These persist for a time and then disappear. And we saw that within the original exorcist case, where after the boy and his aunt was playing with the Ouija board, then words began to be scratched upon the boy's think stomach. That is a cli one of the ultimate cases of where obsession then turns into uh oppression.

So what is the purpose of it, the enemy doing that? Like what what is the purpose of the the bodily harm? Is it to kind of have them lose faith that oh geez, maybe God doesn't love me because this is happening to me?

Is is that kind of like well, obsession is if if you're suddenly thinking about the infernal and you keep constantly going back to it, that is attempting to pave a way to open that chink in the armor of free will. Oppression can in a lot of cases, oppression is kind of the beginning symptoms of true possession, where it's demonstrating a physical control over that individual's body. The first is just the mind, and then you get the body, and then you get full-blown partial or complete control, and that is where possession comes into play.

So if I can give you an example, let's say someone lives in a home and it's a haunted home, they're hearing footsteps, knocks on the door, objects aren't flying around or anything like that, but one random day they just get like pushed. Does that mean we went from obsession to full-on oppression at that point?

No, because that could not mean there's a possibility that that is not a demonic that's an entirely separate thing. That's a fantastic clarifying question. Now, there are certain sects within Christianity that will claim that there's no such thing as ghosts or spirits. I'm not one that subscribes to that particular belief. I think that you have spirits, you have demons, and they are vastly different things. And if you happen to have a spirit that is harassing you, then that's just part of the harassment. Doesn't matter if it's physical or if it's not.

What we're talking about when it comes to oppression is that it is an outward manifestation of the internal struggle that you are undergoing, if that makes sense. Right.

So let me give you another example. And I'm not talking from experience, I'm just thinking of these in my head. Oh no, I get that. Let's say someone is an artist, right? And they potentially live in a home where they're demons and their family, they're not aware, their family's not aware.

And this person's art goes from sunshine, rainbows, cats, kittens, to all of a sudden, progressively over time, it's it shifts to very dark, it starts incorporating demons and the infernal painting something you would see akin to a medieval or not medieval, let's say like a some sort of renaissance interpretation of Dante's Inferno. Something that's that would be obsession. That would be obsession. Okay, okay.

Now, if that person began to experience bites, bruises, cuts that were inexplicable from their origin, then that would be the next stage of oppression. For example, you've read Malachi Martin's Hostage to the Devil. Yes, I did.

Okay. So let's take the very first story where cops are called in to the victim's home, and she appears disheveled, clothes rumpled, hair amess, and smelling horribly. And they ask her if she's fine, and she says yes, and then I think that paragraph ends with the line of how could she tell the officers that she had just been fucked by a giant black spider? That goes beyond even oppression and is clearly possession. Yep.

And listeners, real quick, if you have not read Hostage to the Devil by Father Malachi Martin, it is a brilliant book. I have it on audiobook, and it's stellar. It absolutely is, it's downright creepy. There were times I had to stop it. Same thing with The Exorcist.

That book gave me when I first read it, it gave me nightmares for six months straight. And I always already have nightmares, and it amped them up a terrific amount. And I would say that it pretty clearly changed the course of my life. Like that is how impactful it is. Because not only are there six stories, I know that the subtitle says five, but with the preface and the epilogue taken into account, there are six. Not only are these six stories just compelling and extremely well written, but then it delves into the theology behind it.

And both of those taken together are absolutely frightening. And for me, who was a philosophy student, who was heavily and still am into postmodernism, that book scared the absolute bejesus out of me and still does. And I read it at least once every year or two.

Yeah, definitely great book. I'd highly recommend it. But now that we've covered obsession, oppression, I think we've covered that in those two in great detail. Yep. We go into the realm of possession and perfect possession. So, JJ, from your understanding of possession and having conversations with folks that actually have fought against the enemy, what is your understanding of possession and how does one know that they're dealing with a possessed person? Because, like a lot of people like to say, you cannot cast out mental illness.

Oh, absolutely. And in fact, good friend, friend of the show, and fellow contributor of the paranormal rundown, Father Birdsong, he is famous for saying that, and I heartily agree with that. There's a few things around that particular item. The Catholic Church has a very stringent set of requirements when it comes to testing people for this. Mental illness, thank God, is no longer such an ostracizing or excuse the pun, demonized topic nowadays. It's freely accepted, it could always be more accepted, but yet it's no longer an item that is taboo to speak about.

But the Catholic Church, whenever they are evaluating whether someone may be under the influence of the demonic, will insist upon both rigorous physical and mental evaluations to ensure that there is not a more mundane reason as to why people suspect this particular individual to be under the influence of the infernal. So once you pass that, there are a few other types of signs. If the individual knows secret knowledge, they have knowledge of languages that they absolutely should not, if they are able to manifest powers which are well beyond their control, that's another clear sign.

If there are extreme temperature changes in the midst of the presence of this individual, that's another sign. And from the individual perspective, what's happening is your free will has been eroded. The demon has found a chink in that barrier and has wormed its way in like a parasite.

So, JJ, I apologize for cutting you off, but I have to ask this question. So let's say you have an individual, because you refer to Chink in the Armor quite a few times throughout the show. And I I've been trying to figure out what that is defined as. And here is what I think it is, but please feel free to correct me. When you say chink in the armor, and let's say I think of somebody that it's like, man, I really wish I knew Aramate. I'll do anything to speak Aramate. Is that a chink in the armor?

In the sense the the way that that is phrased in the term in the term of I'll do anything to get X, does that open up, kind of crack the door open to be like, well, I can show you how to do that?

That's a great question. So let's back up one more time and let's cover this one other piece of foundational knowledge. How does a demon choose a person to afflict? The answer is basically we don't know. Malachi Martin had a series of interviews with Art Bell, and they are fantastic interviews. They really are amazing, especially the first two. He gets into much more.

I think there's like six of them, right? Six or seven.

There are, but the other ones, he only like briefly touches upon this main topic, and he gets into a lot more ancillary topics in those latter ones. But the first two are amazing. All of them are good, but I'm I'm after one thing, so you know that's why they're not as cool. Anyway, but Malachi Martin said that he, in over the 700 cases that he dealt with, he did profiling of the people to try to determine are there any common characteristics that these people have. And the answer was no, there's not.

They all came from different socioeconomic classes, they were not the same color, the same gender, the same race. It was essentially random. And I would say that there are we don't know why someone in the end was picked. In fact, that was the point from one of the stories, that they were just randomly picked, and it's kind of like you're dealing with a Japanese horror story. You run across a weird object, you pick it up, and bam, you're cursed. It could be as simple as that, who knows?

But there are definitely things that can be done that will greatly increase your chances of coming underneath the gaze of the infernal. If you go about messing with things that you absolutely should not, Ouija boards, divination, playing around with magic, tempting the Three Kings ritual or the black candle ritual, or you know, playing hide and go seek by yourself. You are tempting fate and opening doors that you absolutely should not be doing because you never know what is going to be residing behind them.

But regardless, once you have attracted the attention of these things, they are not going to let go. And if they can, they will take it to the ultimate pinnacle of what they do. And it doesn't even have to be, and this is where it gets tricky because it doesn't have to be as overt as doing something truly stupid to attract their attention. I think it's the second story, and this is one of the things that really well, both the first and the second stories in Malachi Martin's book are chilling.

Because in the first one, the student who studied postmodernism, who was apparently a good Catholic girl until she came under the influence of the demonic, became attracted to it and attracted the attention of these things by studying postmodernism. The priest in the second story became the object of attention by studying theology or not radical but inherently dangerous theological concepts that he truly sympathized and empathized with, and that opened him up for attack. So it's not like, oh, if I just don't play with the Ouija board, I'm safe. No, it's not.

If you are studying something that is in turn opening a door, opening a door to your heart, that too can attract the gaze of the internal of the infernal.

So after possession, you mentioned the concept of perfect possession. And when I talked to Vic when we had him on, which I think was episode 56, which was a a fun conversation, he talks about being perfectly possessed as well.

Well, well, encountering the perfectly possessed, right?

Encountering the perfectly possessed.

Thank you for the correct because I had him on for I think it was episodes 40 through 42 in Southern Demonology, and they were chilling. Like I actually came into contact with Vic because he sent me voice memos through email that was dictating some of those experiences, and I knew I had to become better acquainted with this man, and we have become fantastic friends since then, which is apparent with the number of times that I've been on trailer trash terrors, and he's been on Southern Demonology, and of course we started uh together the paranormal rundown, but that's neither here nor there.

Let me back up one second. So possession. It is when a demonic entity has wormed its way in and now controls a portion, could be a significant one, uh, of your free will. So you have given up a portion of your free will to this thing, and that results in horrendous behavior and severe memory loss. Some victims of possession report losing months, if not years, of memory. Could you imagine that hell of knowing that you were alive, that you did that your body did things, and yet you have no recollection of that?

That would be absolutely terrifying.

I I it's called my early 20s. Sorry.

The perfect possession differs in that it is not a hostile takeover. The demon did not have to worm its way in. So it's not like maybe I mischaracterized it when I said that there's a stage three and a stage four, because they're they actually represent diverging past in the woods. Stage three possession is when the demonic is hostily taking over your free will. Perfect possession is when an individual willingly enters into this relationship.

Now, the first time I had ever heard of this particular condition was in hostage to the devil, where he makes mention of a boss, I think it's of a television studio, if my memory serves. I really need to reread Hostage to the Devil. It's ridiculous. I can't remember some of this stuff. But his gaze would be so chilling just to look at. That's the thing. Like, there's no indication that this person is possessed besides the feeling it gives.

And when Vic came on my show, and I know when he was on yours, he tells of these three unique encounters that he had when he was working in the medical field, where he thinks these three individuals were perfectly possessed, and they were radically different than a human. They were pertinatural. That's the only word that you could give to these things.

Yeah, and to add on to that, he mentioned that as soon as they came into the location, it's like all semblancy of order went out of the window.

They oh yeah, in fact, he described it as technihility, which I love that phrase.

Yes, I I agree. So it's one of those things where it's like I I don't understand, not saying I don't understand, I'm just saying it's one of those things where you're in a situation where everything is just going bang out of order. And he does bring up the example that working in a hospital, there are rules that you have to follow. And for some reason, when these perfectly possessed people, according to Vic, which I don't doubt him, all of that shit went out the window.

Yeah, there was chaos, and chaos in the sense that they were allowed to be in places that they shouldn't have been, or they were acting in a manner that would have gotten you tossed by hospital security.

Well, in the case of the individual who was under arrest, I mean clearly violating any rules around dealing with prisoners. It's and you have to think about it in this fashion. These new hybrid entities, a blending of humanity and the infernal, they represent something which is so absolutely rare that even Malachi Martin said that you would probably never be able to separate them. Right. Because the person who is undergoing the right of uh exorcism of person has to be a willing participant in some way, shape, form, or fashion.

And these things would not because they get entirely too much benefit, and they are essentially slipping through the rules of not just normal human society, but maybe even transcending natural order. They are horrendous perversions of what humanity should be. I would even go so far as to say that they are the ultimate form of Ahriman's curse that he spat at Ahura Mazda, that I will cause your creatures to hate you. And that's what this thing has done. If it's entered into a perfect possession, then it has fully corrupted a person and were able to do so via its full cooperation and agreement.

This is the problem that I have with humanity from this perspective of religion and perspective. I will always, no matter what information is presented in front of me, be respectful and always like be open-minded and not know for sure, not ever make up my mind until the day I die, till the until I reach the other side of the veil, be sure what's happening. But the problem I have is like that conversation where you talk about all the way back to Zoroastrianism, where you have one deity saying to another deity, I'm gonna fuck you over with your creation.

And it's like, oh man, if that is reality, like it could totally be within the realm of possible that reality is just like that. We are just limited beings that were the creation of some other larger being, and we are completely succumbing to whatever will they have. That is that is infinitely more terrifying to me than the idea of the traditional Judeo-Christian idea of heaven versus hell, you're either good or bad. To me, honestly, as I grow up and learn more about life, it seems more as the former than the latter.

That is what I always bring up in this conversation about Judeo-Christian conversation about how good versus evil and all that stuff. I cannot help but is but think about the idea that we are completely within the realm of whatever imagination that somebody has as a human being at any given time. And it all makes sense. It could be it could be completely innocuous or conflicting, whatever, but it just it just does not seem to be any complete flow from the original to the modern in terms of history. And that's that honestly, that's what terrifies me about this whole conversation.

It could be the demonology could be completely real, or it can it can be completely misunderstood or or miss, you know, like completely fabricated or whatever. Like there's no there's no way to know for sure.

Oh, yeah. And that's why I would say that the one thing that I have left out in our conversations is that there is another way that humans could possibly identify the dark or the kingdom, and that may be through spiritual discernment. Father Birdsong claims to be someone who is capable of discernment. I have met and interviewed others who are able to do that, and it's essentially a you find this more within either evangelical or charismatic branches of Christianity, whether they be Catholic-based or not, where there are certain spiritual gifts that people may have.

And one of them is spiritual discernment or the ability to be able to differentiate between the perfectly human or other influences that may be enacting upon the individual or the situation. I wish I had that kind of an ability. I do not.

Gentlemen, this has been an exciting and insightful conversation. I hope the listeners did enjoy this conversation that we had tonight about demonic possession and our demonology 201 class. Maybe at a later date we could move up to 301 and maybe get someone that has encountered the enemy. Hopefully. Hopefully. But JJ, for my listeners, where can they find you in Southern Demonology?

Southern Demonology is a podcast that's been in operation since 2017. You can find us on all major podcasting platforms. And if you go to southerndemonology.com, you'll have a list of all of our social links and various other information, and that includes our you know, YouTube, TikTok, threads, whatever it may be. It is all listed right there. And for because this is going to be a joint publication, Chris, where can people in a Dean, where can people find y'all?

You can find The Wandering Road on every podcast platform, especially the major ones, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, wherever get your podcasts. If you want to reach out to us, you can reach out to us to our email address at TWroadpodcast at gmail.com. We highly recommend people reach out to us if you want to submit a topic that you want us to cover, or if you want to come on and share your creepy experiences, strange experiences, paranormal, whatever it is. We welcome everybody. We will not scrutinize you, or like Dean said, put holes in anyone's story. We will be very respectful.

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