Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, influence, and how to protect against the unknown? If so, then welcome to Southern Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more.
Welcome all. This is JJ with Southern Demonology, of course. And with me is the ever fabulous Chris from the Wandering Road podcast. And we wanted to go back to school one more time because we figured that it would be very much worth a follow-up in our demonology series. Maybe have a 102 class. Because we've discussed what a demon is. However, we haven't really covered what isn't demonic. And that is an equally valid thing, especially considering the amount of information, misinformation that is flowing around on the interwebs these days. Mr. Chris, how are you doing today?
Emphasize on fabulous. I didn't say fabulous.
No, I'm doing great, JJ. Again, thanks for having me on today for this episode. We were kind of talking back and forth before the show started. You know, what would be a good topic to cover today? And like you said, you know, we've talked a lot about we started with demonic possession recently. You had, I believe it was the free will episode. We had the 201 episode.
So, you know, we thought it would be a good idea to take a step back because I know, you know, when you do these episodes and you view them and we do them from our Christian perspective, I think it's important as academics to take a little step back and view things in a different manner and getting an understanding of what isn't demonic. Because you and I were we share a lot of content back and forth on our TikTok inboxes, and we come across some of the most absurd claims of people labeling everything demonic. I don't know, for clout or for the sake of convenience or for whatever.
Monetization. Monetization, yeah, that's that's more than likely the reason. But I I think it's important to have this type of discussion.
Oh, I'm in complete agreement with you. So I know that you're the one who actually came up with the topic, and I'm glad that you did. What do you have on the list that we can kind of hit first?
Yeah, let's start with I would say the thing that bothers me. There there's quite a few things that irritate me that get labeled as demonic, but I don't know what other way to label this subject, but just to put it out there, I'm gonna say the concept of critical thinking or essentially questioning everything, you know, kind of adopting the Socratic method of saying I know that I know nothing and just questioning everything and, you know, trying to gain more knowledge.
I know for me, when I encounter certain people and I ask questions and you ask questions, and you know, sometimes they like to label, well, that's work of the demons or work of the demonic. Why are you asking this type of question? You shouldn't just ask this type of question. You should just take whatever you're told and treat it as objective truth. There is no room for thinking. And if you do, you are out of line. What are your thoughts on that, JJ? Have you seen does that bother you as well? Have you seen this as a frequent thing, or am I alone in this observation?
Oh no. And especially when that those types of proclamations come from preachers or ministers or people high up in a particular type of religious authority state that then you are simply meant to take it for what it is. It is an undying proclamation that must be abided by. Or if you are on a, you know, you're watching a video and it's proclaiming, oh, demonic activity, and you happen to especially comment, you're nice in your response, you know, in your criticism, but you politely word it, and then you're simply labeled to be a hater rather than a blind follower.
Both of those situations absolutely kill me. And you know, for me, I have a hate list that goes pages upon pages upon pages thick, and uh yeah, I shouldn't, but I do.
Yeah. Oh, I got this person blocked anytime I share something with you. Well, it it's this video seemed interesting. Yeah, well, I don't like them. No, but but on a serious note, JJ, like for me, I studied like for academia when I what when I was in university, I I studied history. And history to its core, it's very detail-oriented. What you're supposed to do, you come up with a thesis statement and you have to back your claim. You have to do research to back your claim.
You can't just claim that this is this and that is the only reason, because obviously in academia, you're gonna be challenged when it comes to whatever you're claiming. And I view stuff with demons and religion in the same fashion. I I think that it's good to ask questions. And because you're asking questions doesn't necessarily mean you are coming from a bad place or you're being facetious about it.
I I think it's very important to make that distinction, you know, when you're having a philosophical discussion with someone about religion or the concept of paranormal or the afterlife or something of that sort. Kind of like with m me and my co-host Dean, we have these conversations on our show and we have them off our show. And he throws, like you've been in some of those conversations as well, and he throws these questions at me, and I don't take offense to them.
I try my best to answer them, but I'm not saying that, you know, just because he has a different way of analyzing and thinking doesn't mean he's influenced by something evil, it's more so curiosity and based off of how people are raised. And there isn't, to me, there isn't one good way to go about everything if you are a good person. So that that's when I I think it's okay.
Because if if I'm having a discussion with you, and I've asked Father Mike this on the previous podcast that we did with the 301, where I gave him the example of Gauls living in like 50 BC and doing what they do that's normal to them to survive and and live. Are they influenced by demons? Is that demonic in their behavior? Or is it a case of the time that they live in and the surroundings they have to adjust themselves to? I mean, the father didn't get upset about that, he answered the question.
Yeah, I mean I even tacked on to that with my hypothetical, which to be honest, has bothered me forever and a day because it's meant to be a logical trap for hardcore Protestants who are heavy into missionary work, which where I'm from, more than quite a few happen to fall into that same exact situation, and then challenge their beliefs. It's not meant to be, you know, the ultimate gotcha, but it was really more phrase to be think. You know, I have long lived by Immanuel Kant's Sapere Audua.
And I think the more beautiful English translation of that is have the courage to use your own intelligence. But the literal translation is simply dare to know. And I can't think of a higher calling, especially when we're dealing with this particular topic, because this is not Hollywood. The demonic is not always freezing temperatures and books flying around the room. It rather the vast majority of the time takes place internally, it is spiritual in nature.
So you mean my talking dolls aren't necessarily demonic? They're okay.
I'm kidding. There's actually a really fun anime to watch in which there's this little girl who winds up, she has this huge stuffed doll collection, and you think, oh, that's cute, until you realize that she has trapped powerful ghosts into every single stuffed animal and then makes them fight for her. But no, my my entire uh point behind this is you know, and I think this leads to kind of in the next topic, and this is a thing that kind of kills me is this and you most commonly find this within Protestant or evangelical circles, where everything is a demon, the spirit of lust.
Oh, you know, I was tempted to go gamble, so the gambling demon has a hold of me. Or the the only valid thing I've ever heard is oh, I need to go smoke. Belfeld has a hold of me. Now that one is true, but all the other ones I I I don't know about. I'm sorry.
Yeah, the Belfeldgore one is true. I yell about you. I yell at you about that all the time. He's gotta let me go. We're gonna cast him out.
Oh no, I hold on to him as much as he holds on to me. So it's a good partnership. But you you find this so often in a lot of churches where you know I know Father Mike has talked about this as well, where you know, it even if you put some money in in a Coke machine and it takes it, it's a demon that was responsible for doing that. And all of these things are patently ridiculous. You know, you can use Occam's razor if you want to to go back to the very first point that we just brought up, but you don't even have to go that far.
When everything is a demon, then not only are you never safe, but you also minimize it's it's essentially the boy who cries wolf. If everything becomes a wolf, well then God help you if you ever encounter the true thing. You know what I'm saying?
No, absolutely. I c I completely agree, and I've heard of that before where you know there's a spirit of lust, there's a spirit of greed, there's a spirit of gluttony, and using the demonic as a scapegoat for your own bad behavior.
Like it's nothing more than a way for you to absolve yourself of responsibility.
No, absolutely. A lot of folks that go through rough times in their life, they often turn to God, which I personally I'm fine with that. That it whatever you know will help you, that that is that is perfect. But alternatively, we cannot blame the demonic for every bad decision that one makes. Because at the end of the day, back to free will, you still have free will. And I always like the example I gave Dean, like the example I gave in the previous episode with the 302 episode with the father.
If you know you have a sex addiction problem and you see a billboard advertising a gentleman's club, you have two options. You can go or you can not go. It's your personal free will that is making that decision. There's no spirit of lust controlling you. And you know, let me say this before people get their panties in a bunch. I'm not trying to preach to anyone, not trying to offend anyone. If you believe in those spirits, fine. It is what it is.
But at the end of the day, I think with this type of topic, we have to understand that if we are going to blame the demonic for every bad behavior, you are in turn denying the fact that you have free will. So, in turn, your free will means nothing. According then why are you here? To be a pawn, to be played? Are you in some sort of chess game in which you have no control of what you do? I I think that's something that is is a very it's very dangerous.
No, it's a it's the ultimate slippery road.
Yeah, and on top of that, not only can you use that to try to absolve yourself of any type of critical thinking, any type of personal responsibility. You know, we joke about the Belfelgore stuff, but we know really it's not Belfelgore making you want to smoke. Exactly. It's the nicotine craving that you have that makes you want to smoke. It's the craving that I have for pizza that makes me want to eat a whole f pie of pizza. And I'm sorry for swearing, but I'm just very animated.
Yeah, and one of these days I will break your addiction to Chip and Dales. I promise.
You never will.
You enjoyed it last time we were there. Chip, you know, he he had yeah. Anyway, I'm not gonna go there.
That that Chip and Dale is the funniest cartoon ever. Those two chipmunks are the best. That's what we're talking about.
Sure, we yeah, nudge nudge. When I say that, the only thing that pops into my head is Tris Farley up there.
Oh, yeah, where he's doing SNL. Oh, jeez. At the end of the day, are there certain things that we could blame the demonic for? Oh, absolutely. Like that house that I lived in. I've come to the realization, or acceptance, that was probably a demon. I didn't do anything to entice it. We didn't summon it, it was just there when we moved in. Now, did that make I let that thing make me be a bad person or a bad kid?
No, I was still who I was, I still had proper direction and upbringing from my parents, I still had a good, loving environment, even though there was a eerie feeling in that place all the time that you didn't want to be by yourself, and sometimes it would affect your mood. One thing I will say, you will absolutely know when you encounter something like that, because it puts the fear of God into you.
There is one thing I'll say, and I'll pass it back to you, JJ, because I'm freaking ranting, is that picture yourself sitting there, you're just doing whatever you're doing, and you hear a voice mimicking that of your loved ones, and then a door on the other side of the house, and you know you're home alone, slams violently. And that type of fear, that's when you know you are dealing with something very powerful. It didn't make me, it was no spirit of lust or something like that.
Because that, like we said before, I personally think that's a way of people trying to avoid accountability for their actions, which there seems a lot of nowadays with the whole is what it is type of attitude, or oh, that's just how I am type of attitude, which I think is bullshit. But I'll digress and pass the I'll get off my soapbox to use a corporate term.
Whenever everything becomes a demon, then it's really easy to fall back into the trap that we saw emerge back in the 80s where everything became a demon. And we had this extreme pervasive satanic panic that had gripped the nation. And you see the most ridiculous things being charted out, everything from Dungeons and Dragons all the way to the Smurfs. And if you think I'm joking about that, I wish to God I was, but I remember going to a special presentation at the Baptist church that was not even a mile from my house.
Because if you know, in the south, almost every two miles you find a new church. And I sat through a video presentation of why the Smurfs were demonic and was leading our children into the clutches of the devil. Even as a kid, I knew that I was hearing the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard in my entire life.
Yeah, that's the first I heard of Smurfs being called demonic. I personally didn't care for the Smurfs when I was younger. I just I was never a fan. I was more of a Looney Tunes type of kid with Bugs Bunny. But yes, I have heard of DD being called demonic.
And again, it's right. I mean, I'll give you a case in point on that one. So when I was in middle school, I began playing DD with a couple of friends, and they really had no idea what they were doing. I didn't know what I was doing, and yet we were having fun, and we were playing by first edition rules. This was back in the late 80s, and I remember I had one of the books on me, and my mom found it, and she essentially told me that my mom is the most sane, rational individual I have ever met.
But yet, because of what she had heard on the news, and out of an abundance of concern for me, she accused me of potentially putting my soul at risk because she thought that I was dabbling with very dark stuff, and that broke my heart. And I knew that a lot of this came forth from a place of trauma because my father dealt with the darker side of magic when he was a younger man, and it caused a lot of problems. I'll just put it that way. And she did not want to see me go down that same road. So I understood where she was coming from.
See, JJ, if I may, that that is a rational like line of thinking.
Like it is, but it was a complete overreaction as well. Sure, sure. Like it came from a good place, don't get me wrong, but yet the reaction to it was entirely too much. And I am not criticizing my mom. I mean, it this was not a particularly good call, but you know, I had one of the most wonderful childhoods a person could ever have. So I'm not bad mouthing her whatsoever. My mom is continues to be my best friend to this day. So anyway, I'm getting off topic. I'm sorry.
No, I don't think you are. I think it's relevant because I think it follows the same mold, but this time with your mom, it's built off of a previous experience.
Much earlier.
Much earlier.
First edition, early 70s, and it was actually based upon an older war simulation game called Chain Metal.
Okay. But again, what was happening at that time? The Church of Satan was what a decade old? Formed by Anton LeVay?
I think it started in 60, either 66 or 67, I think.
Yeah. So from 66 to 67, to when you started, you know, getting interested in D D, and then you had the satanic panic and and all this other stuff, you know, you had the influence of an actual satanic church out there. So I could completely understand, you know, how some people would be like, oh, you know, well, maybe I don't want my kid to get involved. This is potentially a gateway to the satanic church, which is completely understandable. But now, present day, people still hold that view of like Dungeons and Dragons. People hold that view of Harry Potter.
People hold that view of one of the best written masterpieces to ever exist, J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. A man that was a devout Catholic wrote The Lord of the Rings, and most of it was based off of his upbringing. He wanted to write a mythology for England and his experiences in the trenches of World War One. Even that did not escape the accusation of being demonic. And it still does to this day.
People still proclaim Halloween to be the ultimate pinnacle of Satan's power in the world. And actually, I heard someone proclaim that it was the most evil holiday that's ever existed. I just I just wanted to shake my head because you can't dissuade someone from this. I mean, it becomes such a tightly integrated belief that you know it's really hard to dissuade someone from that. But yet it's just anyway.
Look, I'll put it this way most of the holidays that people celebrate were incorporated by the church because they were previous holidays. And if they got rid of them, you'd piss off a lot of people. So in order to keep the masses happy, they incorporated them and transformed them into what we quote unquote celebrate now. But the whole thing with Halloween just pisses me off because it's just turned into Halloween right now is just an excuse to watch scary movies and get candy, get free candy. And that's how I view it. That's personally how I view it.
There, there's no you're not gonna get druids going around, you know, making sacrifices to Arduina in the forest. Maybe one or two. You know, those people still are around, which they label them as pagans in a blanket statement, which, you know, there's more to it than that. You're not gonna have people out there celebrating, uh, what is it? How do you pronounce it properly, JJ? Salwin. Salwin. Yep. Salwin. Yeah, that's not a thing anymore.
It's good to know the history of it, but knowing the history of it doesn't automatically assume that because you take your kid out to get free candy means you're worshiping the devil. Now, if you take your kid to the freaking satanic temple or the satanic church or somewhere, some group that are advertising that we are going to do X and Y and Z for satanic purposes. Okay, there's a red flag right there. So use your discernment.
But again, like not only with the the popular, like we said with the critical thinking, that goes hand in hand with what we're talking about right now with the DD and the popular culture. Dude, I was listening to a podcast, I can't remember which one it was. This was probably in 2016 or 2017, and on the podcast, it had someone claiming that all the spells on Harry Potter were real and that they used it, and that it was of the demonic. Harry Potter is the wizarding equivalent of Star Wars, that's what it is with its own twist.
I I what really frustrates me with this topic is that I told you before I'm working on my own historical fiction. There's some fantastical elements to it. Just because I have the creativity to create this world in my mind and transcribe it in great detail on paper and include these fantastical elements to it doesn't mean that it was influenced by the demonic. Exactly. You are downplaying your creativity. You are saying that when you do that, you are saying that I am not creative enough to do something, and therefore it had to be influenced by something evil.
Just because it looks a little quirky or it takes place in some fantastical world, and the shit that Lord of the Rings gets is because it includes magic. Like, who gives a shit? It doesn't matter if they're doing magic to summon like Belfeldgore, then I get it. Then I get it. If they if Lord of the Rings came with a handbook that said, recite this, light these black candles, do X, cut your wrist, drip three blood droplets of blood in the candle, and set in an offering for 12 hours, then I could understand. Be like, okay, what the hell is going on here?
But again, it's people just taking these ideas and just running with it for the sake of running with it, because you'd be surprised how many people take these ideas and for one second they do not challenge them. They'll be like, Well, where did you hear this from? No, they just take it as gospel and then they just run off with it and incorporate it into everything.
Exactly. And the kind of the last topic that I wanted to bring up is that when you treat everything to be demonic, then you have zero protection against the real thing because you have diluted the the actual candidates down to nothing. And if you ever do happen to encounter the real thing, then you will be absolutely screwed, you know, or it could tempt people into getting into it even more than what they would normally. Oh, I hear that this is demonic. You know, why not just start opening every door that we possibly can? What's the danger in playing with the Ouija board?
If I can find a demon in a coke machine that steals my money, then why not start playing Kikuti-San or start doing some of these weird rituals like the King's Game or Hide and Go Seek by Yourself? What's the what's the difference? And the more, and I'm not saying that every door that you open is going to hold a demon behind it. But the more that you go and open, the greater your likelihood of encountering something.
I I completely agree with you. And sometimes it's unprovoked. You don't like you don't know, like the author that you had on your show and I had on my show, Anna Maria. Yes, the story of her father with the encounter that she had with whatever that demonic entity was hovering outside of his window all the time, and everybody saw it. According to her story, it's not like he was doing anything wrong, he was just writing. He was a poet for God's sake. He was a poet, he was writing, and you had something attaching itself to him for no particular reason.
So, are you gonna try to say that writing and being creative in writing poetry is demonic? No, we can't level that accusation on everything. What I'm trying to articulate, and I think what we've been trying to articulate this entire episode, and you know, we don't mean to come off as being lecturing people or talking down to anyone. I think what we're trying to articulate here is that we need to be careful when we label things demonic because you personally don't like them. And I think that happens too frequently.
You don't like that someone is partaking in some type of activity that you view as unsavory, so you label it as demonic. I I get it, I understand. You don't like it. We need to shy away from doing that and leave the demonic where it is, it's not everywhere, to be honest. It's not me buying a DBZ statue is not demonic. If you going to sacrifice a baby, that's demonic. And that's very freaking twisted.
There are different levels to these things, and and I think what I'm trying to say from my perspective, and I won't speak for you, JJ, is that we just need to be careful because if everything that we've discussed with the demonology series and what we discussed with Father Bird Song and the future episode for 401 that we will have with him, where he actually talks about his encounters with the demonic and how he actually did battle with the in the infernal, like you'll get a better understanding of what that's like.
Exactly. Yeah. The last thing I really wanted to talk about was what a demon actually is. You know, I think that we have spelled it out in you know our demonology 101 and 201 courses, but just to give a real brief synopsis of that, a demon is a pertinatural entity, and there's a difference between pertinatural and supernatural. Pernatural simply means that it is something that is locked to either a place or a time, it is more limited, but it does not mean that it does not that it is not powerful. A pertinatural entity is something that has never been human, ever.
It is an entirely separate thing. It is a thing composed only of spirit, and they are, while rare, at least as we understand it, is extremely dangerous and is capable of inflicting mental, physical, and emotional trauma on a scale hitherto unknown, but can also invade someone's will, minimize it and take it over. And that is the true danger. And by minimizing that, reducing these things that absolutely abhor us down to either base desires or common everyday occurrences, then we are taking away the danger that they truly pose. And that is what scares me more than anything.
I echo your sentiment, JJ. It's like you said, it's it's it's the unknown. It's a being that is so strong and has such hate for you that you do not know what it's capable of. The only thing that we know that it's capable of are based off of the exorcism cases that we get from the church fathers and other religions, like Abrahamic religions and other religions across the world that do have rituals to cast out evil spirits.
And personal stories. I think that your personal story is a you know a key thing, or stories that have been handed down in my family of them encountering the demonic. These things are fantastic signposts. We have to keep our eye on the prize because if we don't, then reopen ourselves to some horrible, horrible things. And yeah, as Chris said, we're not trying to lecture, we're not trying to preach. I just want to put everything into context so that, you know, hopefully we can stay safe out there.
No, I completely agree. And you know that one saying, like the greatest I might butcher this was having humanity believe that the devil doesn't exist or something like that.
Yep.
That that type of thing. I think labeling everything as demonic that you don't like or that makes you uncomfortable, I think that follows into the same mold. It does. Because if you label everything demonic when there are certain things that are demonic, people are not going to believe you. They're gonna call you crazy. They're gonna be like, well, that's not real. And therefore, feeds into the concept that the greatest trick the devil played on humanity was tricking us into believing that he doesn't exist.
Or that he's everywhere. Yeah. And therefore, it's a perfect cover either way.
Yeah, no, I I completely agree.
Any final thoughts before we close out here?
Yeah, I do. One last thing. One of my pet peeves is people that call aliens demonic. Aliens are not demons. Just because there are possi there's a possibility of other intelligent life out in our vast universe does not make them demons. It is very self-centered and ignorant for us as humans to believe that we are the sole intelligent creation of God, because if God is all-knowing, omnipotent, everything, all-knowing, all-loving, creates everything, created the universe, created us. Limiting God, how can you limit God from creating other intelligent beings? Accurate.
And that that's that was the last thing I wanted to get out there.
Very worthy to hear. Thank you very much. I completely agree with you. All righty, Mr. Chris, how can people find you?
So you can find the Wandering Road Podcast on every podcast platform, Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast, we should be on there. We are on social media, we are on Twitter, which I will never call it X, at TW Road Podcast, we are on Instagram at TW Road Podcast, we are on TikTok as well at TWR Podcast. If you want to be a guest on the show, or if you want to share your paranormal experiences or have any questions for us, or call us stupid, you can reach us at our email address of twroadpodcast at gmail.com.
And if you search for us On Facebook, you search the Wandering Road podcast, we should show up on there. But we love interfacing with the community and we encourage people to get a hold of us because one, we'll never judge you. Two, Dean and I are very open-minded, and we love having analytical discussions with all of our guests.
And I can I I can honestly say this. I don't listen to many other podcasts mainly because of the fact that I'm busy. I have, you know, a day job that requires a good bit of overwork. I've got a ton of other projects in the mix. And yet I always listen to The Wandering Road whenever they release every Friday. They are such earnest and honest recordings that I I just I I can't imagine the podcasting world without 'em now. And Chris is has become one of my best friends, and I'm not saying this just because I like the guy, even though I'll never claim that otherwise.
But it's because they really do amazing work. So give them a listen if you haven't already.
Yep. And upcoming episodes that we have, we got some goatman stuff. You know, we're digging delving back into the cryptids. We got goatman, we just released an episode about haunted Hawaii. And we have an episode on the Bell Witch coming up as well. So if you enjoy those type of topics, please do give us a listen. We appreciate it.
You know I grew up just 30 minutes away from Adams, Tennessee, right?
I was not aware, and we probably should have included you for that episode.
Yeah, because I've I've been there a few times and actually have crawled back into the cave. Did anything grab your leg? No, no. In fact, uh the cave was decorated with Christmas lights and chicken wire.
So that's funny. I'm sure the Bell Witch appreciated that.
Yeah, and I think I still at least I did have the book that I had bought from their gift shop when I was back when I was an early preteen. Anyway. Yeah, called the White Bluff Whaler.
Wow. Okay. That's another topic I gotta look into.
And then of course there's an Alabama version of kind of like that, called the the White Fang. And yes, it is with an A, believe it or not, and thing. Anyway, we're getting off topic. Thank you all for listening so much. We really do appreciate it. And join us again real soon. Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.com, which offers links to all of our social media and episodes. Southern Demonology is solely owned, produced, and edited by myself, and the intro and outro music are composed by me as well.
If you have a moment, please rate, like, and share this podcast, as it is the best way to help support my work. As always, I am JJ, and it has been a pleasure to speak to you today.