Demonic Sigils: Myth, Magic, or the Greatest Hoax Ever Told?

Speaker 10:12

Are you interested in angels, demons, ghosts, spirits, and monsters? Are you curious about their origins, tales, <span data-t="22.

1">and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, then sit back, relax, and welcome to <span data-t="30.

8">Seven Demonology, the podcast that explores all of this and more. Hello, all. Welcome back to another joint <span data-t="43.

7">episode by the wonderful people at The Wandering Road. And me, JJ, your friendly neighborhood ancient demonologist, <span data-t="52.

7">as we are here to talk about demonic sigils. And yes, it is sigil, not sigil. Very different word.

It's sigil. It's sigil. Don't make me come through the screen and hurt you.

Speaker 21:08

Yeah, can you tell us about the demonic sigil of Zozo?

Speaker 11:12

There is no demonic signal sigil.

Speaker 31:16

He messed up his own way up. We got him up. Yes.

Speaker 11:20

We knew it was you know, uh, I'm going to admit something embarrassing. When I because I've got <span data-t="89.

4">an episode coming out on that goes through like the in the particular ins and outs of sigils <span data-t="96.

6">and what they mean and if they're relevant, etc. And I was recording the video, and I was <span data-t="104.

0">like, is it Sigil or is it sigil? And I thought that maybe the more like I'm typically wrong.

And I'm like, okay, maybe it is Sigil. And so I use Sigil throughout that entire bloody <span data-t="117.

9">recording, and then realized that no, I was right the first time. It is sigil. And I've had <span data-t="124.

9">now I have to go back and re-record everything because I screwed up one word. So it made <span data-t="130.

3">me feel lovely and important. Yay.

Speaker 22:15

See how many mistakes dude. Yeah. That happens. You know how this episode episode came about? He <span data-t="141.

9">like barged his way into our I got a text message. You recording today? I'm like, yeah, if <span data-t="148.

6">he's available. I'm like, why? He's like, well, because I want to join, basically. So kind of <span data-t="157.

7">strong armed us.

Speaker 12:38

I I was very polite. I just said, Hey, are you recording today? And I said, What <span data-t="164.

3">are you talking about? And he's like, I don't know. And I'm like, okay. He's like, hey, you <span data-t="169.

8">want to come talk about sigils? And I'm like, Yeah, I I guess.

Speaker 22:53

That's not how we're remembering it.

Speaker 12:56

I got the textual proof, bitch.

Speaker 23:00

It's all fabricated by AI.

Speaker 33:02

He's got the sigil to prove it.

Speaker 13:05

That would be accurate.

Speaker 33:07

Okay, let's define sigil first because when I heard sigil, I kind of had an idea of <span data-t="192.

2">what you guys were talking about. But for people who like me who don't exactly know, here's the <span data-t="196.

2">official definition. A sigil is a symbol, mark, or glyph often created to represent a specific personalized <span data-t="203.

4">magical intent or of invoke a spirit. It's derived from Latin sigillum, meaning seal. So it's basically <span data-t="211.

4">a seal, not like an animal seal, but like you know, a stamp seal. Um, they are used <span data-t="216.

1">as tools to focus energy, to protect, or manifest goals, but they can also be utilized for more <span data-t="222.

2">nefarious things like like we're gonna talk about um calling forth demons. So there there could be <span data-t="229.

0">there are people who see sigils as positive good things, and then there are other people who <span data-t="233.

8">see them as a tool for like conjuring evil stuff. So that's in a nutshell, that's sigil.

Speaker 23:58

I I don't know why you had to clarify that it wasn't the animal.

Speaker 34:07

Because you know why? Because because I watched Spirit It Away, in which did you guys know <span data-t="254.

6">the like the little Easter egg about that? Like when they did the translation work from Japanese <span data-t="258.

6">to English, they mistranslated seal as like the little black, they thought the little black thing that <span data-t="264.

2">came out of the old witch's like document or whatever that was binding the dragon kid or <span data-t="270.

1">whatever, like and it came out as like a little black slime thing that had to be crushed. <span data-t="274.

1">The uh the translators thought the American translators thought that it was an actual seal, like the <span data-t="279.

2">animal, as opposed to like a stamp seal. So that's what popped into my head as I was <span data-t="284.

6">describing that.

Speaker 14:46

I did not know that. That is very interesting.

Speaker 24:49

Yeah, that is interesting. So I love spirit away. If you ever run a come across a <span data-t="293.

1">demonic seal, you don't you don't know if it's a stamp seal or if it might summon a seal.

Speaker 34:59

Have you guys ever seen the videos of like seals like popping their heads out of water <span data-t="304.

1">and they look terrifying? They're so funny. There's yeah, there's like a type of seal that looks <span data-t="309.

0">terrifying when it's sticking its eyes out of the water, it looks like some kind of evil <span data-t="313.

8">mermaid or something like that.

Speaker 25:15

You're talking about manatees?

Speaker 35:16

It's uh I'm gonna look it up while you guys are talking and then I'll I'll send <span data-t="318.

7">it to you guys. But uh it's it's it's crazy. Hold on.

Speaker 15:23

I do know of uh the goat species that it's bloody terrifying to look at. Yeah, yeah, <span data-t="330.

5">the one with the more neck, right? Yeah, it's tall and has loose jowls and oh yeah, yeah, <span data-t="337.

4">yeah.

Speaker 25:37

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 15:38

Oh god, those things just look wrong, and the eyes, goat eyes are just creepy. I mean, <span data-t="343.

9">goats in general are great animals, but yeah, their eyes are definitely weird. So I don't know <span data-t="351.

6">if y'all can see this on camera or not.

Speaker 25:55

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 15:57

So these are just some of the demonic sigils that people claim are real.

Speaker 26:07

My question is, where did this come from? Like, what's the origin? Is it just linked to <span data-t="371.

3">like Christianity or does it go back to ancient Judaism?

Speaker 16:15

That's the thing. So there is no basis for sigils anywhere in ancient Judaism, Second Temple Judaism, <span data-t="386.

2">or even later Midrashic. So this comes strictly from the Christian side of the house, but have <span data-t="396.

1">y'all ever heard of angelic script? Can't say that I have. Nope. Okay. Uh, it's supposed to be <span data-t="404.

4">the alphabet that the angels themselves wrote in. There are a lot of different examples and variations <span data-t="415.

2">of this throughout time. The earliest versions are literally just Hebrew characters with circles at every line <span data-t="424.

1">ending, so it doesn't look like anything much, and that evolved over time until you come to the <span data-t="434.

9">Middle Ages essentially in Christianity, where you have all of these magicians writing grimoires, and there is <span data-t="445.

1">one in particular called Alfred the Magus. He had a 16th or 15th century manuscript in which he <span data-t="456.

4">came up with this idea of using zodiac symbols and to represent angelic names. What's the name <span data-t="467.

4">of the movie series that the first one had, Christopher Walken, who played Gabriel?

Speaker 37:54

Oh my god. Um I know you're talking about a car off the top of head either. <span data-t="479.

5">The prophecy.

Speaker 18:02

The first one was an absolutely fantastic movie, and in fact, it started a several year investigation <span data-t="491.

0">for me because there's a scene in which the people walk into a cave and they see this <span data-t="501.

0">writing up on the wall, and it's all this angelic script. I didn't know what it was, and <span data-t="508.

2">so I went to all of my professors, even went to like several other professors that taught other <span data-t="514.

8">languages, was asking them. They didn't know, and I kept digging into it until like three years <span data-t="523.

0">later at Harvard, I finally found a reproduction of that manuscript by Alfred the Magus and found <span data-t="534.

1">the exact characters in which it was referencing, and then later found out that my college has <span data-t="541.

0">the very first edition of that stored on campus. I'm like, why? Yeah, it was just a weird <span data-t="547.

8">kind of turn of events. So, anyway, within medieval grimoire writing, there was a definite trend of <span data-t="558.

7">using these astrological sigils, sigils to represent divine or infernal beings, and that is where the origin <span data-t="573.

2">of these particular seals come from because they look, at least to modern eyes, they almost look <span data-t="580.

2">like circuit diagrams, right? They look like they are mysterious and powerful, and that they hold the <span data-t="588.

9">keys to whatever infernal creature that they're supposed to be representing, but in fact, they're nothing. I <span data-t="599.

4">mean, unless you take like these medieval manuscripts, like the lesser key of Solomon, um, unless you <span data-t="608.

3">take those to be accurate representations of the metaphysical world, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Speaker 210:15

So I'm gonna take a educated guess here or speculate and feel free to correct me because <span data-t="622.

2">I know nothing about demonic sigils. So that's kind of why I brought up the topic too. Is <span data-t="628.

7">the assumption that you would scratch this sigil somewhere in the effort to summon whatever infernal or <span data-t="638.

3">non-infernal being that it's associated to?

Speaker 110:41

It is supposed to give you power over the associated entity. It could be used in a <span data-t="650.

1">lot of different things, but nowadays you'll find them on Etsy printed merch more than you will <span data-t="660.

2">anything else, which is just so sad and pathetic. It's not even remotely funny.

Speaker 211:07

Yeah, because you mentioned the lesser key of Solomon. Is it an assumption that this is supposed <span data-t="674.

4">to replace the ring of Solomon in which the ring is supposed to control all these demons and <span data-t="681.

4">stuff?

Speaker 111:22

But now that that's lost or still on his hand, as I guess the the story goes, <span data-t="690.

3">um that that's what you would use now to Yeah, it's supposed to represent knowledge that has <span data-t="698.

2">been lost and was supposedly recorded and kept safe within this very what's purported to be ancient <span data-t="707.

0">book is actually extremely modern in nature.

Speaker 211:51

So gotcha. So is this more of like an in-theory type of thing, or is this something <span data-t="717.

5">we would encounter? I don't know. I I'm it's just an open question that you know have priests <span data-t="722.

9">encounter this during exorcisms, like people like the possessed drawing demonic sigils. Just to put it this <span data-t="728.

7">way, is this kind of like cosmetic dlc that doesn't absolutely do anything?

Speaker 112:13

The idea of a sigil is still used by apparently the strange YouTube videos that I stumble <span data-t="743.

3">across late at night. It's still very much a part of modern magical practice, although people will <span data-t="752.

0">kind of sit down and do much more free-form things where they're beginning to doodle, and at <span data-t="761.

0">the end of the day, that it's supposed to be a sigil that will then help them in <span data-t="767.

2">whatever they truly desire. I don't know, I don't subscribe to that kind of thought. I think <span data-t="773.

3">it's rather idiotic in nature, but my opinion doesn't really mean all that much in the end, and <span data-t="779.

0">I freely acknowledge that. However, to my knowledge, and I've done a lot of research on this, <span data-t="785.

3">there has been no official linkage between possession and or exorcism to these particular symbols that have <span data-t="800.

4">been you know recorded within uh medieval grimoires that came out of Europe at the end of the <span data-t="807.

8">day, they've garnered some more attention. Like, for example, have y'all watched the TV series Evil? Can't <span data-t="816.

1">say that I know it's actually a pretty good show. Um, me it as long as you don't <span data-t="823.

0">take anything that it says as uh actual like theological or stances that the church or any <span data-t="835.

0">religious denomination may make. It's kind of like the X-Files how you know they had cool stories, <span data-t="841.

7">but every single thing that they had about it was bullshit. I mean, based upon zero research whatsoever.

Evil is the same way, it's a really good story, it has some compelling characters to it, <span data-t="854.

2">the ending was absolutely rushed and atrocious, but there is some good stuff in there. But at <span data-t="861.

4">the end of the day, there is next to no research poured into any of it, and so <span data-t="867.

4">don't take anything that it says to be even remotely true. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. Uh, <span data-t="873.

9">in the series, there are these various demonic houses, and uh they're all represented by a sigil, <span data-t="884.

5">and so you would see like this you know map of sigils uh that they some some ancient <span data-t="891.

8">group supposedly had put together, and all of these houses are being uh denoted by them, and <span data-t="898.

8">you know, there's a rush to try to kill the houses and blah blah blah. I don't want <span data-t="903.

4">to give away too much of it, but yeah, sigils are you know, they've come to represent, oh, <span data-t="909.

5">these are the true embodiment of these infernal beings when they're anything but they are symbols that <span data-t="920.

7">people may have found to be uh effective within certain magical uh systems or symbolic uh rituals, <span data-t="933.

1">but now people have taken them out of context and they're literally making merch out of them, <span data-t="941.

1">whether it's t-shirts or rings or hats or whatever it may have you be, and then you know, <span data-t="948.

7">claiming that, oh, uh look how much I know because I'm I'm purporting I have the symbol here. <span data-t="956.

5">In fact, if there's a lot of really bad content on YouTube that's talking about named demons, <span data-t="965.

0">and they'll sit there and always have their sigil deplay uh displayed on the thumbnail of the <span data-t="972.

7">videos, and every time I see it, I get so bloody pissed off. And like I had an <span data-t="978.

7">episode all about determining a methodology for how to think about named demons, and then I wanted <span data-t="988.

8">to do a subsequent show to talk about sigils before I get into actually talking about specific <span data-t="997.

2">infernal entities, but it was just that really that irritation I would fa I would feel at <span data-t="1003.

3">seeing these symbols trotted around and people not really understanding what they are.

Speaker 316:49

I kind of want to go back for a second to the historical context of sigils and <span data-t="1015.

0">ask you if you are familiar uh familiar with uh I don't know if I'm gonna butcher <span data-t="1018.

6">the word, but apotropaic. So like a apotropaic is like a magical protective um seal that has <span data-t="1026.

9">been found over millennia of um, you know, even all the way back to like animism and <span data-t="1033.

4">very, very old structures of human religion. And I'm wondering if if you've heard of that and <span data-t="1039.

9">those types of symbols, and do you think that that was a precursor to sigils, or is <span data-t="1045.

7">it is sigil completely different from these protective magical seals that used to come uh from older <span data-t="1053.

4">human religions?

Speaker 117:34

I would it's a good question. I would say that they're uh they're not directly inherited, <span data-t="1060.

1">but I I would say that they're definitely heavily influenced. Uh, because you have everything from simple <span data-t="1068.

2">barriers that were typically drawn in salt, you have like Aramaic water bowls, which could either be <span data-t="1077.

0">used to control, I mean, to bind entities to keep them away from you, or to summon <span data-t="1085.

8">them, depending upon who you talk to. I've got a two-part episode on Aramaic water bowls, if <span data-t="1091.

8">you ever want to um, if y'all want to take a listen to that. So, this idea of <span data-t="1097.

5">circles and barriers or summoning have been around for probably as long as we have. These things <span data-t="1107.

6">definitely inherit and borrow from that. Uh, whether it's trying to trace a direct lineage or not, <span data-t="1113.

8">I doubt that the authors or inventors of this idea thought that seriously about it. But yeah, <span data-t="1121.

6">I mean they they play upon very similar concepts.

Speaker 218:44

So I was looking at some of the sigils, and I'm not trying to be a smart <span data-t="1129.

0">ass, but like the one for uh Lucifer, one of the like the drawings look like items <span data-t="1137.

2">from the Yu-Gi-Oh!

Speaker 118:58

show it does, it and that's because those are astrological signs that are just being strung together.

Speaker 319:08

That reminds me of like when parents were saying when we were younger, like Pokemon is <span data-t="1152.

2">the devil, like yeah, I know.

Speaker 119:16

It's a sigil for evil, like this right here is supposed to be the sigil for Gabriel, <span data-t="1166.

6">okay, or Gabriel, the mighty man of or mighty warrior of God. And here's another one that's <span data-t="1174.

6">also supposed to be the real thing.

Speaker 219:37

Is that supposed to be who?

Speaker 119:39

Supposed to be Gabriel, okay, but they're just astrological symbols that are strewn together in random <span data-t="1187.

4">ways that people or some you know then think, oh my god, that's really what their name <span data-t="1194.

2">is, and in like this in the universal language of the universe, and no, that's not how <span data-t="1202.

0">that is. It's just astrological symbols strung together.

Speaker 320:07

Going off of that, I also looked up, I came across the sigil of Baphomet, and I <span data-t="1213.

4">found it fascinating that this particular symbol that it kind of like incorporates the I forget the <span data-t="1219.

6">technical name, but like the upside down star and five-point star, and then there's like the symbol <span data-t="1224.

2">of the goat in the middle. And um, I feel like this is the this is probably <span data-t="1228.

6">the sigil that like most people are familiar with, um, because it probably shows up in horror <span data-t="1233.

9">movies or whatever. Like it's like, isn't it the cover for the Church of Satan or something <span data-t="1238.

4">like that? But this this illustration, the the sigil according to Wikipedia, was created in like the <span data-t="1245.

0">late 1800s, so it's not like some ancient, you know, long-seated uh evil thing that's been around <span data-t="1252.

3">for millennia. This is like literally created within the last few hundred couple hundred years. So I <span data-t="1257.

0">thought that was oh yeah.

Speaker 120:58

And that's the thing, like the the range of grimoires that came out of Europe can range <span data-t="1266.

4">like anywhere from 12th century up to the 19th century, and none of them are based in <span data-t="1274.

4">you know major theological thought or anything, it's just these old white dudes that were sitting there <span data-t="1282.

4">trying to summon crap in their basements.

Speaker 221:25

I mean, I don't like goats, let's put it in the sigil, but that that that's is <span data-t="1293.

9">this is where I'm struggling, JJ. I understand the concept of it, the theory behind it. But <span data-t="1301.

0">if it's not present in anything, did these folks in the Middle Ages just kind of make <span data-t="1306.

1">this shit up, throw on to the theology?

Speaker 121:48

Kind of. Um, and that's where I bring up the idea of angelic script, because there has <span data-t="1317.

8">been a thirst. In certain circles to try to find a language of the metaphysical. Yeah, there <span data-t="1329.

8">has to be something in which the raw force of life itself is written down. And that's <span data-t="1340.

4">where this idea of angelic script came from. That maybe the angels have their own way writing <span data-t="1347.

3">and transmitting information which is so much more real than human language could ever be. And you <span data-t="1358.

9">find this reflected as the exact same principle, but inverted when it comes to the infernal, because <span data-t="1367.

2">the infernals are supposed to be angels, so they would still have that same uh set of <span data-t="1375.

2">communication principles. But what if we could use their language against them by defining it within this <span data-t="1385.

7">universal language? It's just so bad that the people that were writing this grimoires, the only thing <span data-t="1393.

1">they could come to think of is oh, it has to be astrology symbols. That's the key <span data-t="1400.

0">to the universe. So that's a leap.

Speaker 323:24

That's a leap.

Speaker 223:26

Yeah. So like I looked up an angelic script, I can't remember the guy's full name. I <span data-t="1410.

8">think his full first name is Heinrich, but his last last name is Agrippa. He comes up <span data-t="1415.

4">with this angelic script in like the 16th century, I believe it is. How would one know <span data-t="1421.

8">what that even begins to look like if it is a thing? Because you're just putting shit together.

You get where I'm going? I'm like, what I do. What is the what is the church <span data-t="1433.

3">stance on this when all of this came out? Did they view it? Or you may not <span data-t="1438.

5">have the answer, they may have no stance. Did they just view this as like what the <span data-t="1442.

2">fuck are you guys doing?

Speaker 124:03

Pretty much like me, and this has been around since Second Temple period days, this idea <span data-t="1450.

6">of angelic script. And actually, the people that are purported to have developed it, they normally have <span data-t="1459.

2">really weird monikers, like something the bewormed, something the curse, something the the horrific. They never <span data-t="1470.

2">have pleasant names, the the the creators of these particular systems. It's never been officially denounced <span data-t="1478.

2">that I'm aware of, but in no way, shape, or form has it ever been endorsed or <span data-t="1485.

2">even tacitly acknowledged that the existence of these things are out there.

Speaker 224:49

Who's the new Pope? Pope Leo.

Speaker 124:51

Yeah.

Speaker 224:51

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, hey Pope Leo. Can you come out and say this shit is stupid? And <span data-t="1499.

4">I'm not knocking you for like being interested in this topic whatsoever. I'm just viewing it from <span data-t="1506.

4">the perspective of what we do with our shows. And taking this stuff seriously, you know, we <span data-t="1513.

4">we've talked to people that have had demonic attachments, some have had exorcisms, stuff like that. You've <span data-t="1520.

1">done consultations, and not once in any of those stories that Dean and I have covered, or <span data-t="1527.

5">the people we've talked to, not once did the concept of a sigil come up.

Speaker 125:32

Now it may be different from you. It's it's a little different for me. Okay. I I <span data-t="1538.

3">had one case, one consultation that I did, in which the individual that I was speaking with, <span data-t="1546.

7">and I can't give a lot of details, and it's not just me being evasive, it's because <span data-t="1552.

6">I I swore to keep all of this private.

Speaker 225:56

Just general overview. We don't need to know any personal information.

Speaker 125:58

Yeah, the basic idea is that this individual had encountered something that could not be explained. <span data-t="1567.

5">And upon hearing all the details, I fully believed that it was demonic in nature, and they <span data-t="1577.

5">kept running across a particular symbol every time that this thing would be acknowledged. That is the <span data-t="1590.

1">only time that I have seen any kind of linkage between an actual case and a symbol, <span data-t="1602.

6">but it looked nothing like these things did here within you know the appropriate repertoire. I think <span data-t="1612.

0">that was more of a one-off. And my final word when it comes to sigil sigils, goddamn, <span data-t="1620.

7">still doing it, is that you know they've been taken by Hollywood and they ran with it <span data-t="1628.

9">because it looks some of them look really interesting, some of them look cool, and they can <span data-t="1636.

8">even you know embody some mystery to us when you look at it, you're like, what am <span data-t="1642.

2">I looking at? Oh, that must be really old and ancient, and therefore it must have power, <span data-t="1648.

0">it must be so cool, and blah blah blah. They do have that kind of visual punch <span data-t="1653.

4">to them. I will not deny that by any way, shape, or form. However, they're pretty recent <span data-t="1660.

3">creations, we're talking about like 15th, 16th century at the oldest, they come from Europe, so and <span data-t="1668.

2">you know, nowhere near the Middle East in which things were supposed to have started from. And <span data-t="1676.

8">at the end of the day, they're just astrological symbols that are strung together. If any individual <span data-t="1683.

2">people out there put any stock in them, that's because you have put stock in them, not <span data-t="1691.

0">because they have any meaning divorced from the ritualistic or magical systems in which they were invented <span data-t="1704.

7">into.

Speaker 328:25

I sent you guys a link in the private chat. Take a look at it. There's a <span data-t="1709.

1">conspiracy theory that just I was reminded of during this that the uh it's called the cool s.

And if you're a millennial, you probably immediately know what I'm talking about, even if you've <span data-t="1719.

0">never heard the term the cool S. But it's um also called the Stussy S, the Super <span data-t="1723.

8">S, the Slipknot S. This is funny because there's this conspiracy theory that the reason why millennials <span data-t="1731.

7">know how to write this or draw this S or like figure it out is because it's <span data-t="1736.

0">subconsciously ingrained in their entire generation for some reason. And I just it's the reason it popped <span data-t="1741.

8">into my head is because like that's kind of a sigil, like or could you could be <span data-t="1745.

2">like conspiratorially, it could be taken as uh as a sigil, and um, I don't know what <span data-t="1752.

6">do you guys it's probably I mean, I know it's bullshit, but it's still fun to talk about.

It's fun to talk about because we know about it, it just looks cool.

Speaker 129:20

All of this kind of reminds me of that idiotic woman who I don't know, five years <span data-t="1769.

2">ago came up with the conspiracy theory that the claw marks on a monster can oh was <span data-t="1777.

0">six six six. Oh my god, was actually three uh three wows, or if you pronounce it <span data-t="1785.

4">in modern way, three vulves, which can be a six in Hebrew if you count it, so <span data-t="1793.

8">it would be six six six.

Speaker 329:55

It was the biggest bullshit in the world, but it was friggin' hilarious to listen to <span data-t="1799.

8">that idiot ramble on about I mean, not even considering the the uh concept that you told <span data-t="1805.

4">us about in previous recordings where for episodes where you're talking about how it might six six <span data-t="1810.

9">six might even be misinterpreted as the actual demonic number is six one six, right? Like there's <span data-t="1817.

0">like there's not even consensus on the number.

Speaker 130:19

Well, and the reason why is so the text in which that comes from uh Revelation, it <span data-t="1827.

0">is in Greek, and it's actually a name, Neroon Kassa, Nero Caesar, and then they took that <span data-t="1836.

6">name, uh transliterated it back into Hebrew because that was the native or uh that was the <span data-t="1844.

4">native or Aramaic or the native language of the writer, and because they spoke Greek as a <span data-t="1850.

2">second language, as most Christian writers did, and then they took that the numerical value of that <span data-t="1859.

0">to turn that into 666. But uh, whether you have an olum in there or not uh <span data-t="1867.

4">would subtract from the value, so yeah, it's either 666 or it's 616.

Speaker 231:13

Neuro 616 says I just whipped your ass. Stone Cold reference for people that don't that <span data-t="1882.

7">don't know.

Speaker 131:23

Yeah, I I only yeah, only old us old folks would know. I I'm older than you <span data-t="1891.

0">are, and yeah, I I liked wrestling when I was you know eight years old and didn't <span data-t="1895.

9">know any better.

Speaker 231:36

So yeah, I was eight when Stone Cold was at his peak.

Speaker 131:41

That came after me. I was at the Holt Colgan, Randy Piper, Rowdy Piper, but okay.

Speaker 231:49

Rowdy, rowdy piper. Yeah, I still remember.

Speaker 332:01

You might not have been young enough at the time, but in Chris is in my generation, <span data-t="1926.

7">I think there were Chris. Maybe you're too young, actually. Um, but there was like when I <span data-t="1931.

0">was growing up, there were these dolls that were huge for a child, and there's wrestling dolls, <span data-t="1936.

6">and like you weren't cool if you didn't have like a WWF wrestling doll that you bring <span data-t="1942.

2">to your friend sleepover, and you guys like throw around on the floor or something.

Speaker 232:26

Just beat the crap out of it. Yeah, no, I know what you're talking about. Um, but <span data-t="1950.

9">JJ, before we end, I want to go back to one thing. Um, when you were talking <span data-t="1957.

4">about that case, now you don't like I said, you don't have to go into any details <span data-t="1961.

4">or anything like that. But you said this person saw a particular symbol anytime they have an <span data-t="1969.

8">encounter with this entity. So now does that give the concept of those symbols or sigils any <span data-t="1977.

0">type of validation? But the one caveat is that we have them documented incorrectly, that there is <span data-t="1987.

4">some form of sigil or character or something that can reference said inter infernal entity that was <span data-t="1997.

4">plaguing said person, but we just don't really know what it is, and these people back uh <span data-t="2003.

0">five, six hundred years ago were just kind of making it up, but they were kind of <span data-t="2008.

5">on the right path. What they have documented is just wholly incorrect.

Speaker 133:32

I'm leaning on saying no, it is an interesting idea, but you would have to there's a <span data-t="2020.

6">couple of assumptions that you would have to make in order to get to that particular conclusion, <span data-t="2028.

8">you would have to admit that there's something that goes directly into the metaphysical and into you <span data-t="2040.

7">know truth with the capital T, and that would escape language in order to do so. Two, <span data-t="2048.

5">that there's a way of representing that underlying reality in some sort of drawing or writing system. <span data-t="2059.

5">I'm not saying that's impossible for the first one to be there. I I do think that <span data-t="2065.

4">it would be the second one is a really far stretch in my imagination. Now, if you <span data-t="2073.

7">believe in magic, then I guess that would mean that you believe in the first. Is there <span data-t="2079.

6">a way to represent that thing? Um, I mean, the only other possibility is that you believe <span data-t="2087.

7">that to name something is to have power over it, and that a sigil could be the <span data-t="2097.

8">same thing as a name. I don't think so, but then again, I don't believe in magic. <span data-t="2104.

5">So I would say no to all of that.

Speaker 235:06

You don't believe in magic, interesting.

Speaker 135:08

Not particularly. I know I've got many a friend that that does, and I respect them and <span data-t="2114.

8">their beliefs, but I don't believe that there's a thing that can tap into the fundamental forces <span data-t="2123.

5">of the universe, or at least I don't haven't seen any any um any evidence of that.

Speaker 235:30

That could be another topic of discussion later.

Speaker 135:33

Yeah, I mean what are y'all's opinions?

Speaker 235:36

I don't know.

Speaker 135:37

Chris believes in magic.

Speaker 235:39

Do you believe in magic? No, I can't. I'm not going to come out and blatantly say <span data-t="2148.

0">I'm gonna say I don't and that's what I should have said as well.

Speaker 135:51

Like, I I can't say that I'm not gonna be the the atheist and go, oh, there's <span data-t="2157.

7">no way that could exist, blah blah blah. I haven't seen any indications that it could exist, <span data-t="2163.

8">I don't have any strong leanings one way or the other. I'll put it that way. I <span data-t="2169.

6">just haven't seen anything that would convince me otherwise.

Speaker 336:13

You know what I will say? I I think that I'm in the same boat as you <span data-t="2176.

2">guys, where I don't know if magic is real or not. But what I do think is <span data-t="2180.

2">likely is that humans themselves don't inherently hold the capability to exercise magic, even if it's of <span data-t="2186.

5">their own free will, it always comes from some other additional source that is required as part <span data-t="2192.

6">of that magical process. And so, like, it's not really the human doing it. If it is <span data-t="2198.

3">happening, it's like something on the other side. So that goes back to Chris's point about well, <span data-t="2202.

5">if these entities are like starting to utilize these markings, these sigils that didn't originate with <span data-t="2208.

8">them, but they're maybe they're just being picked up as like a human-created tool to get what <span data-t="2214.

6">they want to get done in our realm in the same way that someone like, oh, I <span data-t="2218.

9">want to do this magical incantation. It's not actually the person like using magic in their own <span data-t="2223.

8">body to manifest these things that weirdly happen. It's gotta be like from some other third-party source <span data-t="2230.

0">that is seeing the human trying to conjure it, and either conjures like its own source to <span data-t="2235.

2">manifest what the human wants, or it's got its own like desires to do something on like <span data-t="2241.

7">that it that's you know what I mean? Like it's doing something for itself, the entity, as <span data-t="2245.

5">opposed to actually doing it just for the human's sake, whether it's good or bad.

Speaker 237:29

No, I I get what you're saying, Dean. From that perspective, it's not really the person <span data-t="2254.

8">doing magic, more so whatever entity, you know, trying to get them to believe, you know, like, <span data-t="2263.

3">oh my god, you're doing it, but no, I'm actually just messing with you type of thing. <span data-t="2268.

2">But again, I take the stance of I don't, I don't know. I never really looked into it.

You have people that come out and claim that they do magic, they do white magic, <span data-t="2277.

0">black magic, blood magic, you know, witchcraft and stuff. Like, I mean, there are people that are <span data-t="2283.

0">self-professed witches and they do certain things and it seems to work for them. So does that <span data-t="2287.

9">count as magic? I I don't know. Um, I think it just depends on your view.

Speaker 138:13

Um I mean, we do have direct conversational evidence of the church of Satan, the high <span data-t="2303.

2">priestess, you know, performing rituals of destruction within whatever you know inner sanctum that they happen <span data-t="2312.

4">to have had. Uh, you do have people that you know claim that manifesting, you know, wishes <span data-t="2320.

0">or desires can lead about certain things. And God knows, even from just southern traditions, you have <span data-t="2328.

9">a lot of things that could be considered magical, from hanging up, you know, blue jars from <span data-t="2338.

7">trees in order to scare away ghosts, even to using biblical prayer in order to heal people. <span data-t="2348.

3">So you get a lot, a lot of gambit stuff, and I can't say that none of it's <span data-t="2354.

4">real. I mean, my gods, you've got entire classes of Hondur and Bokur from Hudouism that you <span data-t="2362.

0">know there's some stuff that's effective there, so I can't say that there's not.

Speaker 339:26

I think this is a really good episode, and I learned a lot, but I do want <span data-t="2369.

9">to queue us up for possibly a new discussion next time. That I stumbled across this um <span data-t="2375.

8">concept in Christianity just doing research about sigils, and I I just wound up on this page. <span data-t="2380.

6">I don't even know how I did because it's not sigil-related, but apparently there is a belief <span data-t="2386.

5">structure or a doctrine that is called serpent seed or dual seed. And uh, I don't know <span data-t="2392.

5">if you've ever heard of that, Chris or um uh JJ, but it's basically it says the <span data-t="2397.

2">doctrine of the serpent seed, also known as dual seed, is a controversial belief in some fringe <span data-t="2402.

6">Christian Abrahamic religious movements that interprets the fall of man as the serpent is the one that <span data-t="2410.

5">mated with Eve in the Garden of Eden, and the offspring was Cain, and it goes down <span data-t="2417.

5">that rabbit hole. And apparently, this is this position uh is as old as like circa 180 AD.

And I don't know I I think this fascinating. Like, I have never heard of this, <span data-t="2429.

4">and it I guess it's kind of fitting into the Gnostic herist Herecratic or heresy belief. It <span data-t="2437.

0">says uh Valinidius in 100 to 160 AD was the one who labeled it as uh evil or <span data-t="2445.

0">espoused it as heresy, but I had never heard of that like Gnostic approach to the Garden <span data-t="2449.

7">of Eden is like you know, the devil is the one that made it with Eve, and <span data-t="2453.

0">that's how you got Cain. And I I don't know, that's crazy, right? Like, I never heard <span data-t="2457.

7">of that.

Speaker 140:58

I've never heard of that, but you get a lot of weird, weird shit from Gnosticism.

Speaker 341:10

It reminds me of the grimoires, like, there's just so much spin-off to like people thinking <span data-t="2475.

5">about well, what could this really be? And then they come up with their own ideas, and <span data-t="2478.

6">it's kind of like a religious comic book series where, like, oh no, I think he had <span data-t="2482.

8">three arms. No, he only had two, and he had the power to spit acid. No, he <span data-t="2486.

6">no, it was actually super strength, you know, it was like kind of like that.

Speaker 141:29

There's definitely a lot of fan fiction in in the world of Gnosticism and other I mean, <span data-t="2495.

1">a lot of it's pseudopigriphal as well, so it's like modern day people drawing a comic book <span data-t="2501.

5">and then claiming that Stan Lee is the one who really drew it and they found it <span data-t="2505.

5">in the late 60s, and right I remember yeah, that's how yeah, I remember what I was <span data-t="2515.

5">gonna say.

Speaker 241:56

So you brought up, and this is the last thing I'll say before we uh wrap it up.

You said something with like southern magic and the satanic temple, and it just reminds me <span data-t="2526.

1">of those episodes with Arc Bell where he talks to like that lady that was involved.

Speaker 142:11

That's exactly what I was thinking, yeah. Yeah, but it's not the satanic temple, it's the <span data-t="2536.

6">church of Satan.

Speaker 242:17

Church of Satan, I apologize. Please don't sue a satanic temple. Um, we're sorry for the <span data-t="2543.

7">mix up.

Speaker 142:24

They've got damn good lawyers, so that yeah, they do.

Speaker 242:28

Yeah, we're sorry for the mix-up, but we have nothing to sue anyway. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 142:34

Amen to that one.

Speaker 242:36

But what I was gonna say was the concept of manifestation. I think that's a real thing, <span data-t="2561.

6">but not in the way that most people believe. That they think that if they think hard <span data-t="2566.

3">enough about this all the time and they talk about it, and you know, you say your <span data-t="2570.

9">affirmations, it'll appear magically. No, I think the way that it works is that you shift your <span data-t="2578.

6">mindset to manifesting what you want. And what I mean by that is let's say, JJ, you <span data-t="2586.

1">want a new a new car, right? Or a new house or something, something uh uh akin <span data-t="2591.

7">of that. And if you go in with the mindset that, okay, I see this car on the <span data-t="2598.

5">lot, I'm gonna go to the dealership. I don't know, maybe I'll get it. I don't think <span data-t="2603.

2">I'll get it. I don't think they'll give me a good trade in. I don't think this, <span data-t="2607.

2">I don't if you go in with a lot of doubt and a lot of negativity, you are <span data-t="2611.

9">manifesting negative that you are going the answers you're going to give to that salesman when you <span data-t="2618.

5">have that conversation are predetermined by your mindset because you are focusing on what you can't do <span data-t="2625.

2">at the moment. But if you go in like, I've been looking for a car like this <span data-t="2629.

0">for like six months, this is exactly the make in model that I want. This is the <span data-t="2633.

4">year, this is the mileage, it's in the price range, this is what I have to put <span data-t="2638.

6">towards it. I want this fucking thing. If you go in with that mindset, to me, that <span data-t="2643.

4">is manifesting. Because when you go into that situation, you already have that mindset. Like you are <span data-t="2649.

4">subconsciously prepared for those conversations. You are subconsciously prepared to walk off, drive off that lot. <span data-t="2657.

1">Not walk off that lot, drive off that lot with said vehicle. So it's a preparation of <span data-t="2662.

0">your mind and your subconscious to get what you want, as opposed to like Dean, we make <span data-t="2668.

8">fun of it, five million dollar man, five million dollar man, and then you just expect someone <span data-t="2672.

4">to fucking pop up with the briefcase. That's not how that shit works.

Speaker 144:36

Not with that attitude.

Speaker 244:38

Right? Yeah.

Speaker 144:40

I mean, attitude goes a long way, but I will pose a quick little devil's advocate thing <span data-t="2690.

2">here. If our thoughts are based upon quantum weirdness within our brains, and if that quantum weirdness <span data-t="2701.

2">can represent the fundamentals of reality in some strange way, and if we focus those things into <span data-t="2713.

8">a particular outcome, is it impossible that we could actually manifest things directly? I I don't know. <span data-t="2721.

7">I don't think so, but that's the only way that I can see that attempting to manifest <span data-t="2729.

1">things besides changing your attitude to towards something to actually affect reality itself. And I can't <span data-t="2738.

7">say that that's not true, but I also see no evidence for that.

Speaker 345:43

You can kind of tie that back to sigils too, right? Like from a degree. Like, oh, <span data-t="2748.

2">I believed the sigil is gonna do XYZ, and you're already putting that in your mind, so <span data-t="2751.

7">maybe uh the manifestation of those outcomes are less reliant on the sigil itself and just the <span data-t="2757.

6">fact that you drew it or you put it on yourself or whatever.

Speaker 246:00

I mean, it's all placebo, right? Just to help interest your mind push you forward. I <span data-t="2767.

4">mean, Dean, you and I have gone on runs for multiple tim multiple times over for years <span data-t="2773.

9">running together. And we get to a certain point on that run where it's like my legs <span data-t="2779.

9">are fucking killing me, my hamstrings are are shot, I'm cramping everywhere, I have like a half <span data-t="2786.

2">mile to go. Do I walk the rest of the way? Or mentally, do you g up yourself <span data-t="2792.

2">like fuck it? You you create something in your mind to just push through to get yourself <span data-t="2799.

6">over the line. To me, I I know a lot of people, that's how I view manifestation. <span data-t="2804.

3">It's using your own mind to help you push forward when you need it. And if you <span data-t="2810.

3">think that fuck, I can't do this, I can't do this half mile. God, I'm gonna tear <span data-t="2814.

8">my hamstring, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. You're gonna be more focused on the <span data-t="2818.

8">negative aspect as opposed to fuck, if I don't get to this finish line, XYZ is going <span data-t="2824.

6">to happen. We know it's not gonna happen, but in your mind you're trying to trick yourself <span data-t="2828.

6">like I gotta do this, I gotta get it done. So I know people who view it in <span data-t="2832.

2">a magical aspect, but from like fucking reality, physical reality of things that we've done on the <span data-t="2839.

7">jogging trail and lifting and all that stuff. That that's just how it makes sense.

Speaker 147:25

Sure. So everyone, thank you for listening to all of this. I think that we covered the <span data-t="2852.

7">broad basics of what sigils are, how they came to be, how they're being used today, and <span data-t="2860.

8">at the end of the day, how asinine at least the people that attempt to put them <span data-t="2867.

8">on merchandise have turned them into being. So as always, thank you, Christine, for having me. And <span data-t="2875.

5">if you would like to tell my listeners where they can find you, yeah, sure.

Speaker 248:00

So you can find the wandering road on every podcast platform. We are on YouTube and on <span data-t="2886.

5">a visual medium. So if you like video podcasts, go check out the the wandering road on YouTube.

Uh like, subscribe to the channel if you want to share it with other people that <span data-t="2898.

7">you know. And if you would like to be on the show or have any questions or <span data-t="2902.

9">comments or suggest any topics for discussion, we can be reached at twroadpodcast at gmail.com and give <span data-t="2909.

5">us a follow on our socials on Facebook, just search the wandering road. And we are active <span data-t="2914.

6">on Instagram, TW Road Podcast, or just search the wandering road, give us a follow. And if <span data-t="2919.

8">you want to message us there, we love interfacing with the community. And for you, JJ, where <span data-t="2924.

1">can my listeners find you?

Speaker 148:45

Uh, you can find me on southerndemonology.com. Listen to all of our episodes, but we're also <span data-t="2932.

1">on every podcasting platform. We do have video episodes up in case you want to see this <span data-t="2938.

5">lovely, beautiful face and body on your screen um on YouTube and on Spotify. And otherwise, yeah, <span data-t="2948.

7">you can reach me at the website in order to contact me or to learn more about <span data-t="2953.

8">our socials, etc. And if you want to see the other end of JJ, go to his uh <span data-t="2957.

5">OnlyFans page. That would be accurate.

Speaker 249:21

No, he does not have an OnlyFans.

Speaker 149:24

I only have one, I only have one subscriber so far. Cheering you on. I'm so proud <span data-t="2972.

6">of you, JJ. No, y'all are sharing the account. I know you're too cheap to pay for <span data-t="2977.

9">it individually.

Speaker 249:42

Oh man. All right, folks, we hope you enjoyed today's episode. Tune in for the next one.

Speaker 149:56

Thank you for listening to Seven Demonology. Find us online at 7demonology.com, where you can find <span data-t="3004.

6">all of our social links, including YouTube, TikTok, and Patreon, in addition to listen to episodes and <span data-t="3013.

6">read their transcripts. Also, if you have a moment, please rate this podcast and share it with <span data-t="3020.

9">friends, as nothing can help us grow more.