Are you interested in angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, monsters? Are you curious about the origin, tales, and influence upon history and on the present day? If so, sit back, relax, and welcome to Seven Demon Nomad, the podcast that explores all of this and more.
Well, this episode should be dropping on Christmas Eve. So I want to wish everyone out there a very happy holidays. So I would say that I wish you a happy uh New Year's as well. But hopefully I won't be able to speak to you before that happens, believe it or not. I know regular schedules. Is this really Southern Demonology? The answer is yes. Yes, it is. Anyway, I hope that the holiday season is treating everyone very well. I have a very special gift for you. I I wish it was something that is physical and could be mailed out, but rather it is an auditory one.
We have a very special guest today, whose name is Christy. She's a fellow academic. She has studied a variety of different things. She has gone on archaeological digs, uh, she has studied the Mendaians and John the Baptist. But what I really wanted to get her on here to discuss today are uh Aramaic incantation bowls. Now, I have been to quite a few museums and I have always seen a few examples of these, and I was first introduced to them as um water bowls. But Christy has rightfully informed me that it really should be incantation bowls as the official designation, but they are fascinating.
Uh, and once you hear her describe some more details around them, I think that you will find them even more so than just what the name implies. Uh, they their promise is not only met, it is exceeded. So I hope you take a listen. It's gonna be a really good time. Uh, Christy and I actually had a a uh a very long conversation, so I will be chopping this up into uh two parts. So uh this is going to be part one. I really hope you enjoy it, and at the very end, uh I will come back with a little bit more information, uh, but otherwise, please uh sit back, relax, and enjoy. Hello all.
I have a distinct pleasure of having Christy on the podcast. Uh, we met during a podcast exchange. Uh, she reached out to me saying, hey, I'd be happy to come on. And uh ever since then, uh, she has become my best nerd friend, uh, had some serious academic talks, and I am really excited for all of y'all to get to meet her as well. Uh Christy, hey, welcome to the uh podcast and thank you for joining.
Thank you so much for having me. Um, you you're gonna make me blush. Um and sort of, you know, um, I don't know, my ego is gonna just be insufferable now.
Well, you know, I I'm always known for making people insufferable because I know so uh but you know, uh Christy, why don't you give kind of uh uh if you don't mind, a brief overview of how you got into the field, some of the subjects that you kind of specialize in, uh, because we are in very similar um uh academic study paths, and it's always interesting to meet people that have gotten interested by similar topics as me.
So sure. Um so actually um I'd always sort of been interested in archaeology. Like when I was a kid, I was like, I'm gonna be a paleontologist and I'm gonna be an Egyptologist. And then I got really into choir. Um, and I was um originally a vocal major in college, and I was also um a very devout Southern Baptist, and I was living in uh Mesa, Arizona at the time, and there was a gentleman that was teaching a class on Christian origins. Um his name is Shoemaker, he's great as far as I know, he's still teaching, he's awesome, highly recommended.
Um, but I took the class because I thought, you know, hey, you know, if I'm gonna live my life by this, then I should probably learn more about it. That's not Sunday school. And uh I had a crisis of faith. Um and we had spoken about this previously, um, but it was some years and I was very angry about it. And um and Bart Ehrman, who is a New Testament scholar from uh Chapel Hill, um had a similar issue when he was attending Wheaton College. Um and he described it as being dragged, kicking and screaming from the faith. And I had a very similar sort of like reaction to it.
Um and then I decided that I was gonna stop singing and be an archaeologist because I was really interested. Um and my first dig that I went on was in 2009 to the Mount Zion dig in Israel, sponsored by UNC Charlotte, um, where I'm now a staff member. Um and we do love volunteers. And so if you want to come volunteer and dig with us, then plug that. Um Google dig Mount Zion. Um yeah, and so I went there and a buddy of mine that I'm still friends with, uh we were walking to site one morning and uh you know 4:30 or 5 or something ungodly.
And uh and he said, if you're if you're getting into this because you want to learn what you believe, then quit now and go home. And that's the best advice I've ever gotten. Like, because I I really was. And he was like, You're not gonna find it, you're gonna drive yourself crazy, so quit now and go home.
And oh, that is fascinating advice, yeah.
Yeah, and I I asked him about it the other day. Um, and he was like, Oh my god, did I say that? I'm sorry. And I was like, No, Jonathan, like that's the best advice I've ever gotten, like in this field, period, like from anybody.
And uh why do you think that is so especially true? I I'm curious to get your take on it because I've never been on an on a dig or an archaeological expedition whatsoever.
Um, I mean, like just like within the field of like religious studies, like um and a lot of people that that go to seminary, um, it's it's a known phenomenon that that quite a few people that go to seminary uh will lose the faith and and drop out, or they'll you know they'll continue because you know I'm already more than halfway through or whatever, but um but they you you don't come out unscathed a lot of the time. Um and I think I think because religion is one of those things that you can't, I mean there is no inherently proving it, right?
Which is why I laugh at my my choice of uh a future occupation because I'm not gonna find out anything until I'm friggin' dead, right? Um I mean, you know, and and I'm not knocking people that are devout, like that's great 100%, like go for it. But for me, there's too many variables and too much like, and I was, you know, the Baptists don't like talk about sex and don't like talk about you know uh quantifiable things, I guess is a nicer way to put it. And so just you you need to have more faith.
Like even in high school when I go to small group, like I lost count of the times they asked me to have my mom come pick me up because I would ask questions about it, you know. I'd ask questions about whatever we're we're reading or talking about or whatever, because we'd have like a book a semester we'd go through or something. And I'm just like, okay, well, what about this though? And they'd be like, We have to have faith. I'm like, okay, yeah, but my faith isn't a problem. So like just answer my question. And there was no like dogma, there was no um, it's not dogma, um theology behind it.
Because, you know, again, like the the more evangelical type sects don't have you know, they don't have um the same kind of theology and like uh method of thinking as like the liturgical sects or like you know Catholicism, right? There's and you know, um Rick Warren wrote some book that was massively popular even in like the secular uh community, and it just it's like it's kind of like um the secret. Like, okay, this tells me nothing about nothing. Like, why am I reading this? Like, this doesn't tell me anything.
And so um I didn't get into it necessarily, but I was talking with like the the high school pastor or whatever when I was going to church. I was I went to church twice a week, sometimes three times a week. Like I was really into it, and like we were going back and forth for probably a half an hour, and I could tell he was getting frustrated. And I was like, dude, you know, if you don't know, you can just say that. Like, you know, as as and now that I think about you know, as as corporeal beings, if there if there is a God, I I term myself a hopeful agnostic at this point. I'm not against it.
Um, I would like to think that there's something else I know that you know, in my life and by you know, seeing other people's lives and like reading, you know, random medical literature and whatever, like weird things happen. Like there's stuff that happens that nobody has an explanation for. And that by you know, by physics shouldn't happen. And so I'm like, okay, like you know, either we can't understand it right now because we don't have you know the the science to do so, or like there's some sh there's something going on, and I'm okay and I'm okay with that.
Like I'm okay with the not knowing now. I wasn't for a long time. Um but uh but yeah, so like as as corporeal beings, like I've always said like um, so my mom died earlier this year, and like I still have like the ashes and stuff, and um and she said that she always wanted to be put in a folders jar. And so she she loved drinking folders.
And my stepsister got like I think she was like offended by the idea um because I kept saying it and uh you know, because they just gave me like a a black box full of like the bags of ashes or whatever, like I don't have an urn and I'm not gonna keep her around. Like I don't have a need to because that's not like my mom, you know, like it's ashes and uh and you know, just like the I'm rambling a bit. So you know, a funeral is for the living, like whatever happens to the person that's died, they are not concerned with what's going on here anymore because they are not corporeal any longer.
And so as far as religion goes, bringing it back to that, so very long answer to a very short question. Um as far as religion goes, as corporeal beings, I don't think that we can understand something that goes beyond that. Because you know, like just like you know, the idea that like God can't talk to people he has to send angels because like he'll make people's heads explode or whatever was in like dogma, like we moved through seven atoms before we found that out, right?
We can try and show, but um but yeah, and so like okay, so God, you know, and like and even Moses like couldn't even look at God, like he had to hide his face as you know in the crevice of the mountain as God was passing by. And even then, you know, human beings couldn't look upon Moses like because he was reflecting God, like it was too much, and so as a result, I don't think that it's uh unreasonable to argue that we can't understand it, like that it's not possible.
Oh yeah, I used to have a professor in grad school who always said, if you ever get to be in the presence of God, you are not gonna have the best of days.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like um, and so yeah, so like I think I think that's it. And so like going back to the crux of the question is you know, why is that why was that good advice? Like I think that's a great deal of it, is that it's impossible for us to grasp and understand. And there are so many, even just veins of Christianity that aren't even around anymore, much less the one you know, the tens of thousands that are.
Like if you go looking for something that that quote unquote feels right and you're looking for it, you're gonna drive yourself crazy because you're just gonna sit there and be like, Well, okay, cool, well, like, you know, the Mennonites say this, but the Lutherans say that, and you know, the Gnostics say this, but you know, then the Catholics say that, and like okay, like what what are you gonna get for it? Absolutely, nothing. You're gonna burn yourself out and and you know, and quit because you just dug yourself a hole, right?
Um actually, I want to go back and ask you, like, um, I think it is true that the more that you begin to study these topics, there are things that can trip somebody up. Uh, like, for example, knowing that, you know, there's over just in the Hebrew Bible alone, there's over a hundred whole pexagomina or words that are just used once. And although we think we know what they largely mean, you know, we have definitely lost the nuance to that, or the fact that there are certain rituals, like uh the whole uh tribute to Azazel. We'd we've forgotten what that actually means.
Um, or the if you start comparing the Hebrew Bible to the Septuaginth, and you see all of these different, you know, variations and things that have been dropped from one and added to another, you know, there's a lot of things that will make someone begin to question and question at a pretty fundamental level. Do you remember what it was that kind of uh you know caused your crisis of faith, as you put it?
So it's gonna sound really dumb.
Um there are no dumb men at all.
Yes, there are. Um I was a TA for two years, and there were some really smart kids, and there were some kids that really needed some help. Anyway, um we accurate. Um, so I've been having some some issues with the class anyway. And um, I mean, not with the class, like it was a great class, it was super cool. Like our final was to, as a class, come up with ProFootball is back, and so are the predictions.
Like now, like if we came to somebody who was like, This happened, like would somebody be like, Oh, okay. Like, so like we got rid of like the virgin birth, we got rid of a couple of different things, like um, you know, because that didn't happen, you know, like it happens with frogs. Um, and actually, I read the other day it's been happening with condors.
Um, that that is true, yeah, with the asexual reproduction.
Yep, with a pathogenesis, right? Um and uh so we were sitting there and we were talking about the New Testament, uh, because it was about Christian origins. And we were talking, so we didn't talk about like the Old Testament a super, super lot, um, because again, it's you know, it's about um you know, first century beliefs and yada yada until you know about 300 when it starts to really codify, right? With like Nicaea and Constantine and all that.
Um so we're talking we're talking about uh about Jesus in the New Testament, basically how he's like he's pretty chill when dealing with these things that people think are a big deal, like um like sex workers or like you know prostitutes, quote unquote. Um, and with the poor and with those that are sick or whatever, like you know, now it's very um stigmatized, all those things, and you know, evangelicals. And I'm speaking from my own background, so here's that, you know, like evangelicals like don't they don't embody the gospel of James like they should.
And like um and correct me if I'm incorrect, um, but as far as I am aware, the only imperative that was used in the New Testament was with what in respect to Jesus was um take care of the widows and the children, like like take care of the flock, like make sure that people have what they need. Um, and the imperative, like we don't really have it in English, but like we have it in other languages, and it's it's literally a command, right? Um and so like we were sitting there talking about that, and you know, and then uh Mr. Shoemaker was like, Okay, so like what about God in the Old Testament?
I'm like, Well, he was pissed off all the time, and he was, you know, like not only like screw y'all, but like screw y'all forever, you know, go nuclear, like salt the ground, like you're done. Like for no reason.
I mean, like when Joshua and you know the Israelites like crossed over um from the wilderness or whatever, like there were people already living there, and God's like, no, no, no, no, no, but screw them though, like they didn't do anything wrong, they were just living there, and like this group of randos like just shows up and like I'm gonna take all your shit and like and and kill you and your kid, and I'm gonna live in your house. It's gonna be great, like you know, and so like you're sitting there, and so you know, and so uh Mr. Shoebaker's like, you know, how's God in the New Testament?
And I said, and nobody said anything. I said, Well, he's absent. Because he is, because God never shows up in the New Testament, right? It's just Jesus and then he said, Well, how about God in the Old Testament? And I said, Well, he tells people to do stuff all the time, or yeah, and you know, do it or else, right? So not just do it, but do it or else. And um and he said, Well, Okay, so how do you interpret that? Like how do you understand that? And I said, Well, how is that different than a kid with an ant farm that's messing around with the farm? Exactly.
You know, and so like that was really, you know, I'd already been having some doubts and some issues. And I know it sounds like a weird place to like have that final meal in the coffin, like the the crack that you know, to sort of like turn into a fissure. Um but that's really where it was. And um and I don't know why that's what did it, but just like oh you know, like being raised, you know, Southern Baptists and all that, you know, and the Southern Baptists love that Jeremiah quote about, you know, I know the hair is in your head, and I have plans for you, and blah blah blah, whatever.
And I was like, okay, but you know, and like the free will thing I always had an issue with, like, you know, well, if God knows what you're gonna do, then how do you have free will? Like, you know, and nobody could ever explain, you know, because again, the Baptists don't really do theology because you don't have to do anything to be a pastor, and um, you know, I don't know.
That entire concept of a lot of Protestant faiths have it, and I'm not knocking anything, I'm not advocating for any particular faith over another, uh, whether it is a sect of Christianity or it is uh you know an entire different religion. I am completely, you know, neutral on all of that, but I will say that there is no belief that drives me crazier than the one where anybody can just pick up the Bible and read it and completely understand it.
Right?
That is bullshit.
I mean, I I have like five, I have five different versions of like you know, annotated Bibles, and then I have you know, an annotated Bible and then like the the actual like you know that's annotated, but then it has like a companion book to go with it. I think it's um it's a Catholic one like put out by Harvard, I think.
But like both of these things are like 2,000 pages long and exactly because like you don't know sorry, um you like you can't understand these things, and like you know, the like they talk about all these things in the New Testament but harken back, you know, or the the old testament that you know are like um that you know foreshadow Jesus or whatever, and like no, no, I mean yeah, you can take it that way, and like yes, Jesus was emulating these things, but that's because it's it's uh it's a type, it's a typology, right?
Like I'm doing these things to invoke this other thing, you know, just like John the back just said a lot of his stuff to invoke Elijah, you know, like a lot of his things were reminiscent of Elijah specifically, and so like yes, there are these things, but you're not gonna know that by just picking it up, right?
Like that's exactly it, like and you can't understand like what something meant in like you know, the old testament slash like Hebrew Bible, like however you want to take it, like because you haven't read the Midrash, you haven't read these other you know, you haven't you haven't read anything that you know, and and um there was um there's some passage in the New Testament um where Jesus mentions somebody that was martyred or something, but that was in a text called the Lives of the Prophets that was circulating around that time, but like you don't know that it means nothing to you because you've never heard of it, and like, yeah, like it's it's patently ridiculous.
Like you don't get to talk to other people about what this means when really you're just interpreting it for yourself.
Accurate, like so, but one of the getting back to I guess the original topic was um you had gotten to study something that has always fascinated me, and that are and that's Aramaic incantation bowls. Can you just give like a summary of what in the hell these things are?
Yeah, absolutely. Um and I got there a weird way too. Um there's a so first we're let's talk about the bowls. Um so they were they're found, they were only made during um the like sixth to the eighth century centuries. Excuse me. Um so there's like 200 years of these, and like that's it.
There's nothing year. Okay.
Um so there's nothing before them that is is comparable really. And then like then they stopped when um when uh Islam began moving through uh the area. They're they're they're made in in Mesopotamia in Babylon, like Iraq and Iran right now. Um uh usually in like the what we'd consider like the northern portions. Um yeah, and so like as of now, um we know of a couple thousand at least that are in private collections or museums, and like there's I mean there's more in private collections.
Um, but the vast majority of them uh unfortunately don't have any provenance because they've been sold, you know, on the antiquities market or whatever.
Um for most of them, yeah, absolutely.
Well, and then yeah, and then there's a hobby lobby thing that they got in trouble for a couple of years ago uh for buying antiquities.
Yep.
For buying stolen things. Because like um, like the IAA will only get you for things that were purchased after like I don't know, 75 or something. So it's it's a pretty short window of time. If you're like, no, I bought this, you know, before then, then like okay, well, you know, there you have to document it now. There's some kind of documentation process, I assume. But they won't they won't ding you for having something or inheriting something or you whatever.
Um and so um so yeah, so um there are the British Museum has quite a few, and in 2000 or 2001, um, a few scholars went through and and translated all of them and documented things about them. But um these are bowls and and they're they're quite small, they're about the size of a cereal bowl. So I don't know, like so-ish, um, like a standard cereal bowl. Um and they're made out of um, they're made out of clay. They're they're just standard use bowls that normally you just got to go to the store and buy.
Um, and so it's quite interesting that you know these things were used for magical purposes when they weren't sort of like bespoke items. Um and so what what you would do is you you know go to the market, whatever, buy this bowl, and you'd go find a scribe. And so these bowls are are 90% of them are written in two dialects of Hebrew. Um, one is Jewish Aramaic, which is a majority of them, and um, and the other is a dialect called Mandaean. And the Mendaians are a very small Gnostic sect. Um, and there's there's uh discussion, I guess, over their origins.
Um, and I was originally gonna write my master's thesis on that, and um my thesis chair disagreed with my thoughts, which is that the Mendaian, the Mandaian theology says they came from Palestine and then they moved eastward um from persecution from the Jews or whatever. Uh, because they're because they're the quote unquote real Jews, and John the Baptist is is the good guy in Mandaian, and then Jesus was a bad guy and a usurper, and and he tricked John the Baptist into baptizing him and like all this kind of stuff. It's it's really interesting.
Oh, it is fascinating.
Yeah. Um, and so uh so uh and then the other school of thought is that no, they were already in you know the marshlands in in Mesopotamia, and because they are so cloistered to Gnostic, nobody really knew they were there, and like they're you know, a brand of manicha uh manichaeism and this kind of stuff.
So anyway, um and their iconography is just like so bright, so vivid with the reds and yeah, it's just it's beautiful. Yeah, you know, I don't mean to detract.
No, no, no, like no, I'll talk all day about Mindaians. Um uh anyway, um, but yeah, so you have these bowls and you take them to a scribe, um typically either Jewish or Mindaian. Um, there are some bowls that are written in Syriac, which uh which are typically Christian bowls, and then there are a far fewer number that are written in Arabic. Um and even the Syriac ones or um Pahlavi ones are are very rare. Um and I'd imagine because this is getting closer to the time when the bowls were stopped, but I don't know. Um that's my guess.
Um so you take it to the scribe and for you know, you're for example, like you have a headache or you know, or you're pregnant or you're having issues with you know not, you know, staying pregnant. And so you go to scribe and you're like, hey, this is my problem. And they're like, all right. And so the scribes have various, um there, there are they'll riff on them sometimes, but there are probably like five or six like different spell formulae that are typically used. Um, and typically it'll start out with um with the matronym, which is interesting.
Um, you know, it'll be, you know, Christina's son of or daughter of Linda, right? It'll always like name the mother, which is interesting because at that point they weren't doing that. They're you know, the Jews were doing patronial stuff, right?
So yeah, in fact, a lot of magical formula kind of floating around, it was based upon prayers, but it never really ever mentioned the person itself. Yeah, if they were meant to be passed along.
So yeah, okay, yeah, and like interesting, yeah, and also um the the scribe doesn't necessarily have to be the same belief or you know in the same religion as as the uh as a person um commissioning the piece. Like they're they found um in one of in one of these um digs that they did, they found symbols that were that named the same person, you know, like you know, so and so, you know, son of so-and-so, whatever. But they were written a couple of them are written in Mandaic and a couple of them are written in uh Aramaic. And so like who knows who knows the religion, right?
Um and so uh I find I find that quite interesting as well. Um and the Mandaian the Mandan script will um will also use um Jewish formulae, which is also very interesting. Um and so um so yeah, so in the in the Jewish bowls, they typically will they'll start at the rim and the writing will move in a spiral, um, usually counterclockwise, I believe. Because left-handed, yeah. So it'd be counterclockwise and until it reaches like the bottom of the bowl. And usually at that point there's a drawing of some kind. And who the figures are in the drawings are still up for debate.
Um, even in the Jewish bowls, like yes, it'll it'll mention, you know, it'll quote biblical text or or you know, or a get or something, which is um a get is a uh is a divorce procedure within Judaism. And oftentimes if someone believes that you know they're being plagued by a demon, for example, um, the most common one is is a get against Lila. Um and so like I will I divorce myself from this demon, so I divorce myself from sickness or from you know these things that are plaguing me.
Um and so uh there's been some work recently uh based on the iconography of the bulls, which I find fascinating. And um, and that's that's how I got into it, is based on the iconography. Um and then the Mendaian bulls will also write inside the it'll also be um in a specific way, but they'll write it in in three sections, like wedges, and then there'll also be like figures. Um a lot of times there's an Ouroboros, um, sometimes it's just like animals, but often it's these weird sort of like human animal hybrid things that are usually uh pictured in fetters or otherwise bound in some way.
Um and the the belief is because most of them that have been found um um in situ have been found overturned and they're they've been found typically um on the threshold of the home or in a in the corners. And so it like the idea is that it's forming some kind of a perimeter. Um and there have been some that have been found where the like the bed should have been like within this home.
Um, and those are typically ones that talk about um about pregnancy and childbirth and like Lilith with a capital L, um, like the personage of Lilith, like because she likes to come and and steal babies away and whatever, um, according to the lore, right? Uh and so the idea, the the general thought is that by turning these upside down, if demons are coming from like the underworld, then they'll get caught in the bowl and they won't be able to come up.
Um, but there have been other bowls that have been found that are put together like rim to rim, and they're um they're stuck together with like pitch and like um and like rope or twine or something. Um and it it's quite interesting. No, as far as I know, like no one really knows what to make of these. Um, but there have, you know, inside there sometimes there's something inside of them. Um sometimes it's um it's like an eggshell or something like that, but there have been a number of them that have been found with either skull fragments or an entire skull.
So I know that was a very cruel place to insert a cliffhanger and I apologize. In fact, you know, at the very end she was saying that if they found some skull fragments. Keep that in mind because that story is gonna get a whole heck of a lot more interesting in the second half. Uh, but again, I'm trying to keep these episodes to as close to 30 minutes as possible. Uh, I know that some people may want some you know longer ones, but I don't want to inflict my voice upon people for all that long. So, you know, bear with me.
But part two will be coming up uh the very next week, so you don't have long to wait on that one. Uh the one last thing I wanted to say is that I have been trying out uh this new uh wisdom platform, which is a social audio platform, and there I have uh done one talk which was uh introducing just the entire concept of what Southern Demonology is, and it runs for about two, two and a half minutes, so it's a very short read.
Um, and further I have also done a longer form talk uh which was um on Wednesday uh December 22nd, uh, and that one ran for about 25 minutes, and there I covered some uh future episode ideas that uh I have been considering. If you are interested, uh I am happy to turn these either into uh full episodes in and of themselves, or I can put them onto our uh YouTube channel and have them live there as well. So if you're curious, um you know you can always check out the the wisdom talks.
I have been thinking about if there is enough interest, then I could always do an after show on wisdom or on another platform. I'm not wedded to any single one at this point, um, or I could just do some general QA sessions. Uh, but the good thing about the QA is because Discord has been bumping up its live broadcast and uh interactability elements. I could also do it there as well. So if you're curious, if you're interested in either one of those avenues, please reach out and let me know.
Uh, you can reach us on our website, on our Facebook page, on uh our discord server, uh, and actually uh on our YouTube channel. So anywhere you want to go, you can uh hit us up and let us know exactly what you would be interested in. Uh as always, if you want to have some more interaction with the show, please feel free to join our Discord server. Um, or if you want to support the channel, please uh uh join our uh Patreon.
There are several different layers, but if you'd like to get our content early or even have your name read at the end of each episode, or showing up in lights on our YouTube channel, then uh more than happy to do either one of those. Uh anything to be able to pay you back for paying us to help actually run this channel. So, again, thank you very much. I greatly appreciate it. Hope everyone out there has a wonderful holiday, and until next week, I'll see you then. Thank you for listening to Southern Demonology. Find us online at Southern Demonology.
com where you can find all of our social and podcasting links. Also, if you have a moment, please feel free to rate this podcast and leave any encouraging feedback that you may have. As always, I am JJ, and it has been a pleasure getting to talk to you today.